#2477 - Rick Perry & W. Bryan Hubbard

[00:00] Joe Rogan podcast check it out the Joe Rogan experience train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day gentlemen great to see yeah put him on slap him on what's happening good to see you gentlemen again [00:19] Taking off. [00:21] One more time. Yeah, one more time. So what is the latest? [00:26] Give me the latest. Where are we at? Why don't you take it, Brian? [00:32] You are the most current on where we are, what's going on. Man, there has been a lot of stuff happening. [00:40] in the 15 months since we were here. I mean like stunning amount of stuff. [00:44] so let's not wasting time [00:45] Tell them where we're at. All right. Well, the last time we came to visit with you, I believe, was on December the 27th of 2024. We were just on the front end of having organized 30 committed Texans whose own families had had experiences related to trauma, addiction, alcoholism, and the wounds of war. [01:15] addiction and trauma committed themselves to using their time, [01:21] their talent, and their network to achieve what had never been done before, and that was to convince an individual state to undertake drug development to create drugs,

[01:31] a therapeutic medical breakthrough for public health crises within its borders that are representative of the national reality. After you released the interview with us on January 2, 2025, we pursued a five-and-a-half-month review. [01:47] blistering campaign to convince 188 blank slate Texas legislators to fund [01:56] the single largest psychedelic research and medical development project in history, that being the $50 million Texas Ivogate Initiative. We had the assistance of some in-state allies, one of which was Texans for Greater Mental Health, led by a dear friend and brother of mine, Logan Davidson, who was my right hand, going to meet with legislators continuously while I set up shop at a hotel here in Halston [02:26] Weather off, sweating, and making sure that everybody who needed to be introduced, educated, and motivated to get behind this would do so. At the end of this five and a half months, we secured... [02:39] the votes of yes, of 181 out of 188 legislators between the Texas House of Representatives and State Senate. [02:51] who we had to persuade at the 11th hour to get behind this project. On May 14th, [02:57] 2025. Just... [02:59] 36 hours before the Texas budget was finalized, this bill that would create the first unified FDA drug development trial with Ibogaine in U.S. history was not funded.

[03:10] I woke up that morning. I believe very much in [03:15] Keeping your prayers in the closet as Jesus taught and not getting out there parading about it. [03:20] But on that morning... [03:22] I got a call, and it was, hey, we're getting to the 11th hour. We don't have money to secure this. It may not make it. [03:29] We've done everything that we can. [03:31] And I just, I literally got down on my hands and knees and said, God. [03:35] and [03:36] Please let this happen. [03:37] And if it cannot happen, help me understand why. [03:41] Three hours later, I got a telephone call asking if I could go and meet with the Texas House Speaker and Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick. I went at 4.30 in the afternoon on May the 14th and spent an hour with these two gentlemen going back and forth about what this project was, why it was so existentially necessary for Texas and the country. And on Friday morning, May the 16th at 10 a.m., [04:05] We got a text message from Lieutenant Governor Patrick confirming. [04:09] that he would approve and fully fund the Texas IMAGINE initiative. As we walk in here today, literally just 10 minutes before we walked into your studio, [04:20] I can confirm. [04:22] that the great state of Texas is going to fully fund the Texas Ibogaine Initiative, originally intended to be a public-private partnership, but now has decided on its own to commit... [04:37] A full $100 million to launch the development of Ibogaine all the way through the FDA's drug development process for the benefit of the American people. To do so on its own, without any drug development partner, and to do it.

[04:54] For the good. [04:56] of humanity. That's phenomenal. So what did you have to say to Dan Patrick to convince him of this? And kudos to him for doing this. Well, I had some very wonderful advocates who preceded my meeting. Was he skeptical? Oh, he was completely disengaged from the process, highly skeptical, as we learned through intermediaries. But we had [05:17] two wonderful brothers on mission who happened to be twins, Marcus and Morgan Luttrell. I know Marcus very well. Marcus and Morgan Luttrell reached out to the lieutenant governor. They spoke to him very movingly and personally about their own experiences with Ibogaine, what it had done not just to save their lives, but what it was doing to save the lives of warfighters who had come to the end of being able to live. [05:47] and what it has done for their brothers and sisters-at-arms who've returned to war, to broken government systems. [05:54] can do nothing. [05:57] to cure what ails them at their core, he was persuaded to have an open-minded conversation. And through that conversation on May the 14th, we essentially went through what [06:08] Science suggests [06:09] are the powers of the most sophisticated molecule on the planet to resolve physiological substance dependence and thereby create psychology within the human being, whereby they believe they have ownership of their selves and their future and that that future will be one defined by choice rather than compulsion. And the most powerful aspect of the Ibogaine argument, not just for the lieutenant governor and house speaker, but for most of these legislators who voted yes, is...

[06:37] The experience endorsed by many. [06:39] That I've again... [06:41] Confirms. [06:42] without question. [06:44] the reality of our individual human divinity. And that is the greatest truth conveyed by this fabulous plant. Well put. And I don't think it's just Ibogaine that confirms that. I think you could say the same about many other psychedelic drugs that are [07:00] They're unjustly maligned and treated as if they're an escape from reality. But in the interest of this being a standalone podcast for people who don't know what Ibogaine is and don't understand the efficacy of it and how unbelievably effective it is. [07:16] at especially treating addiction. Could you please just go over that? [07:22] This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience is brought to you by Paramount+. UFC history is going down at the White House. It's the world's greatest fights on America's biggest stage. Watch UFC Freedom 250 at the White House live today only on Paramount+. [07:41] This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. [07:53] Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it.

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[09:59] slash J-R-E for 30% off. Terms apply. Yes, sir. So Imogaine is an alkaloid that is derived from the Iboga shrub. The Iboga shrub originates in the central Congo basin. Its native country is modern-day Gabon. It is the mother country of the Iboga shrub, which has been used for centuries [10:29] who include the Pygmies as well as the Bantu tribes that lived there in Gabon. In the early 60s, it was discovered that Ibogaine and Iboga had a significant interruption effect on opioid addiction. There was an individual who had been addicted to heroin for a number of years. They took Ibogaine, and not only did they not experience any withdrawal when they stopped taking heroin, [10:57] they stopped having any desire to use any drug whatsoever. This touched off [11:02] 60 years of open label field studies that are mountains high and decades wide. [11:10] that firmly established that Ibogaine has a unique and singular. [11:16] interruption capacity on physiological substance dependency, whether that's opioids, alcohol, methamphetamine, cocaine, or tobacco. Recent evidence also suggests that it has a significant interruption effect on compulsive behaviors, anything that kind of impacts that brain's dopamine system and produces a rush. Particularly gambling. Yes, sir. Now, in 2018, the

[11:41] US Special Forces special operators started going to Mexico for treatment of symptoms of traumatic brain injury, expressed through treatment-resistant depression, anxiety, and suicidality. Many of these veterans had gone through the VA system. They had been given an unbelievable amount of synthetic pharmacology that, in their end effect, essentially, was, [12:05] anesthetizes the soul. [12:08] and slowly euthanizes the body. And they were at the end. So as they were going to Mexico and would get Ibogaine treatment, they came back with these just unbelievably... [12:19] just powerful recovery results that seemed too good to be true. So there were some scientists at Stanford University that were funded by a philanthropist who wanted to understand what was going on. And so what we have come to learn through a Stanford research study on traumatic brain injury for vets is that ibogaine has – [12:41] remarkable neuro-regenerative capacities on the brain that are unheard of in the annals of Western science. And while information is still very small in amount and preliminary, there are individuals who have had Ibogaine treatment for not just traumatic brain injury, [13:01] but for multiple sclerosis, Lyme disease, Parkinson's disease, post-surgical complications related to the removal of brain tumor who endorse a restoration of functionality and an ability to live that are otherworldly. And,

[13:17] as we recognize that the opportunities to improve the human condition at scale are multi-lifetime in appearing. We believe that we have found one of those. And if we're going to do justice to the human species, it is incumbent upon us to take what appears to be a promising therapeutic improvement and deliver it with speed through the U.S. medical systems. And that's what Governor Perry and I have founded Americans for Ibogaine to do. Just that. [13:47] achieve the moonshot of our time, and that is to bring Ibogaine medicine to the American people as quickly as possible. [13:55] Well said. And thank you again, [13:58] Governor Perry because if it wasn't for your involvement in this, I think a lot of people would be far more skeptical. [14:06] You being a former distinguished governor of the state who is a Republican, generally speaking, most people think of Republicans being anti-psychedelics and that this whole thing is just a bunch of people trying to escape reality and poison their mind and tune out of society and become losers. That's the general consensus of people that are – [14:29] just... [14:30] for lack of a better term, ignorant of the effects of these substances. They don't understand it, but... [14:37] If it wasn't for you, your open-mindedness, your willingness to engage in this and try to understand it and to speak to these veterans – [14:47] I don't think people would be taken into seriously. Yeah. So thank you. Well, and thank you.

[14:53] As I've watched you over the last 15 months, [14:57] It seemed like ever six weeks or so. [15:00] You'd have a guest on here, and you'd be talking about Ibogaine in particular and what is the progress that we're making. What comes up so often. Yeah. Well, and it should. It should. It should, because this truly – [15:14] I mean, this is not what I came into the world for. This is not what I came to politics for. This is what, you know, I got led to this through that relationship with Marcus and in turn Morgan Luttrell and seeing those two boys literally, particularly Marcus, on the doorstep of committing suicide. [15:34] When he came to live with us at the governor's mansion in 2007, we had met the year before just by the grace of God. And I told him, I said, if you're ever through Austin, come by and see me, knowing that the chances of that would be pretty slim. He knocked on that guard door in May of 07. [15:53] And said, the governor said, if I was ever through here, come by and see him. They called. [15:58] I let him in for dinner. [15:59] And my wife, who's a nurse. [16:02] She recognized this young man who was really troubled. [16:05] addicted to opioids [16:08] masking it with alcohol [16:11] Really sick. [16:12] And for the next two and a half years, he lived with us at the governor's residence. Wow. And that started this long journey, literally.

[16:23] with [16:24] him, and [16:25] and trying to find ways to heal him. We sent him to a host of different places, Carrick Brain Center in Dallas. We sent him to what's called now Axios. [16:35] athlete's performance in those days, but a great rehab facility down in the panhandle of Florida. And they helped him conquer. [16:45] or helped him manage the opioid addiction. I will suggest to you until he... [16:52] was treated with Ibogaine, which did... [16:55] clean that [16:57] completely away from him some years later. But the point is, [17:03] He really struggled. [17:04] And he has become... [17:07] like our son. [17:09] As a matter of fact, I talked to him this morning. He said, be sure and tell Joe howdy for me. He just thinks the world of you as well. I talked to his brother the day before. They understand how powerful. [17:21] this compound is from the standpoint of treating post-traumatic stress, traumatic brain injury, addictions. [17:28] I mean, this is... [17:31] And as I became convinced... [17:34] One of the things that I will say that I've been... [17:40] I've been open to change, just like criminal justice reform. In the early 2000s, I was kind of like, lock their ass up, throw the key under the jail. You know, you break the law in the state of Texas, here's how we treat you. [17:52] And I had a...

[17:55] District Judge in Fort Worth, John Crusoe. [17:57] A Democrat district judge who I knew and had been friends with. [18:02] Um, [18:03] He said, Governor, we got a program here that allows these individuals who have broken the law. [18:09] They maybe got caught with an illegal substance or what have you. [18:16] And rather than sending them to jail, sending them to the penitentiary where they become professional criminals. [18:25] We give them a second chance. We put them in a rehab program. We put them in a treatment center. We put them in a boot camp. Give them these options rather than sending them to prison where they're going to become professional criminals. And the recidivism rate is going to continue on. [18:43] I'm kind of like, nope, I'm tough on crime. [18:49] That's what us Republicans do. But it really got me thinking. I mean, I am curious-minded about... [18:57] concepts and ideas. So that brought me to having conversations and, you know, long story short, [19:04] That single conversation led to [19:09] Texas [19:10] leading the nation. [19:12] with criminal justice reform. [19:14] Yeah. [19:15] Texas Public Policy Foundation, that now Secretary of Agriculture, Brooke Rollins, was operating in the mid to late 2000s. They came on board, saw this, supported it. We passed it through a very broad.

[19:33] Republican, very conservative legislature, and Texas led the nation to [19:38] in criminal justice reform. Saved us billions of dollars. We stopped building prisons. We stopped sending people to prison where they were becoming professional criminals. So that [19:52] if you will, [19:53] was what we took to Donald Trump in 2018. [19:56] and [19:59] He was just like me initially. I'm tough on crime. [20:03] I'm... [20:04] Thank you. [20:05] But he was open... [20:06] He was curious. [20:08] Brooke Rollins, interestingly, had come up and was his... [20:12] uh, [20:13] domestic policy advisor at that time, and she made the pitch, and he was open. And that conversation led to him being open to federal. [20:22] criminal justice reform. [20:24] And today, there are people who... [20:28] You may have different ideas about President Trump and what have you. I know that's the case. But on this issue of criminal justice reform, this man was curious. He was open-minded, and he's made a real difference in people's lives following the Texas model. The reason I share that with you as an example – [20:51] That's where... [20:52] I was on... [20:54] these compounds, these drugs, these psychedelics mean [20:59] I grew up in the 60s. [21:01] Timothy O'Leary... [21:02] using LSD, marijuana, any of that kind of stuff. I mean, it was anathema to me.

[21:08] Absolutely and totally. I don't have anything to do with it. This is crazy stuff. You get in trouble, they'll throw you in jail, you'll jump off of buildings. I mean, every story that you can imagine that people read. [21:23] And then think about... [21:25] from the 60s forward. [21:27] How, you know, I went into the Air Force, they, you know, [21:31] We took drug tests. [21:34] At least... [21:35] Monthly. [21:36] Thank you. [21:36] So the idea of being involved with a drug was just... [21:40] Totally and absolutely not on my radar screen. These these are bad things. And we're reinforced in the 80s with Mrs. Reagan. Just say no to drugs. Here's your brain on drugs. I mean, we have been browbeat as a society for 60 years. And when you add to it what Nixon did, President Nixon did in the late 60s, [22:04] early 70s with his war on drugs. [22:09] He hated hippies. He hated blacks. And one of the ways you could go after them was to go make these compounds Schedule 1, which he did. Schedule 1 says there is no medical purpose for it and it is highly addictive. [22:24] I begin. [22:25] fits neither of those. Ibogaine is not an addictive compound. [22:30] by any sense of the imagination. It's also absolutely not a recreational compound. No, at all. It's not something that someone's going to do at a party. And we are proving without a doubt...

[22:39] to the Texas legislature, to legislatures across this country, in Mississippi, in Tennessee, in Arizona, West Virginia, that it does have a medical foundation. [22:49] That there are some extraordinary things that can happen for their citizens who have PTSD, who have sexual trauma, who have addictions. I mean, saving lives up. [23:02] By the thousands, hundreds of thousands, I will suggest to you when this is approved across the country and we see it as a relatively important. [23:13] easily studied and [23:15] accessed by medical care compounds. So [23:19] that story... [23:22] of... [23:23] Seeing. [23:25] These two young men. [23:27] who have... [23:29] given everything [23:30] Literally. [23:31] up to willing to give their lives, and a lot of their friends did. [23:37] freedoms and our liberties in this country. [23:40] And for us to say to them, oh, sorry, you can't have access to this because, you know, they're, you know, [23:47] President Nixon said this is bad stuff back 60 years ago, and it was taken off the shelf as a Schedule I drug, put over here, and for 60 years – [23:58] Americans have suffered through [24:00] So many different. [24:04] eras. [24:06] the late [24:07] 90s. [24:08] when the Sackler family and Purdue Pharma comes along and we literally

[24:13] I think one of the most demonic things I've seen in my public life is this family who used oxycodone. [24:21] Yes. [24:22] And sold it to America. [24:25] as this be-all, end-all. And then our federal government in the mid-2000s [24:32] We didn't know how to deal with these young men who would be put in – [24:35] these horrible conditions and [24:38] positions, [24:40] of being at war. [24:43] time after time after time, rotation after rotation, [24:47] tempos that we'd never seen before in the history of mankind I'll suggest to you. I mean, [24:52] Joe, we were at war for 20 years. [24:55] 20 years during that period of time, there's special operators that were deployed eight, nine, ten times. [25:03] And then they come home... [25:04] And the governor gives them a sack of opioids and drugs. [25:08] and that makes them feel crappy and they... [25:10] Mask it with alcohol and we sit around and go... [25:14] Why did... [25:16] Bobby killed himself. [25:18] Well, because the government... [25:20] failed in its great responsibility to take care of these [25:24] Young men and women in my opinion. So we owe it to them. [25:29] As a matter of fact, a dear friend of mine who just passed away, [25:33] within the last two days. [25:35] Thank you. [25:37] He had worked with me for... [25:40] Gosh, 30 years. [25:42] And when he first saw...

[25:45] that [25:48] I was getting involved with this. [25:50] psychedelic drug, this [25:53] ibogaine compound. [25:57] And we were having a conversation. He said, [25:59] You need to be really careful with that. You've got a great reputation. You spent 40 years building that reputation up. You don't want to throw it away on some cockamamie idea here. [26:09] I told him I said, well, [26:11] I don't think I'm doing that. [26:13] I've studied this. [26:15] pretty intently. I've talked to a host of different people [26:19] Um... [26:21] And I said... [26:22] So I'm comfortable about the science here that I'm seeing and what have you, and I say I think it's worth it. [26:29] going forward with. [26:32] I said, Ray... [26:36] their lives are not worth more than my reputation. [26:40] And that's... [26:41] That's what kind of continues to drive me. There are people that still kind of say, why are you doing this? Because I believe in it. I mean, I believe it to the point, Joe, that I'm willing to. [26:52] risk my reputation. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. A lot of people hit stretches where money gets tight. And it's not just the bills. It's the constant pressure, the mental load, the second guessing of every decision. And honestly, one of the biggest difference makers isn't some perfect budget. It's having a solid support system when things feel heavy. And if

[27:22] If you can't solve your money problems, it can change your relationship with finances. It can help you manage the stress, anxiety, and maybe even any shame you feel around money. A good place to find a quality therapist is BetterHelp. Plus, they do a lot of the work for you. [27:41] Literally, all you need to do is answer a few questions and BetterHelp will match you with a fully qualified therapist online. They have an industry-leading match fulfillment rate, which is a fancy way of saying that they typically get it right the first time. But even if they don't, it's super simple to switch to another therapist. When life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com. [28:11] Better, H-E-L-P dot com slash J-R-E. I don't think you're risking your reputation at all. I think that's foolish thinking. Me neither. I think it's people that don't understand the times. Yeah. This is a different world. We're living in a world of information now, and you can't go by these false narratives that were adopted in the 1970s. Yeah. [28:35] And we're winning. I mean, I'm telling you what Americans for Ibogaine has done. And, you know, we started out, I tell people, I said, you talk about a small group of people. I think there were six of us. He's the CEO. I'm the chairman. We got Dr. Rulon, who's the secretary, and Claire Stapleton, the communications person, and then Marcus and Melanie Luttrell.

[28:56] Marcus's wife. [28:58] are the other two members of our little board. And we were this small little group kind of going along and doing what we were doing. We were successful in the Texas legislature and what have you. [29:09] But... [29:09] It's exploded now. We have ambassadors, Americans for Ibogaine ambassadors all over the United States now. People have seen what we've been able to do in Texas. Mississippi followed suit. They sent their governor a piece of legislation. I want you to talk about that. We're going to do the roll call here. Yeah, and share with Joe and his audience just the great progress that's being made. [29:39] And quite frankly, I think about Michael Dell when he was selling computers out of the trunk of his car back in the late 80s and then his college dormitory. AFI kind of found itself like that. [29:55] Just a few months ago. And I'm not trying to say that, you know, we're Dell Computer today, but we are growing at such a leaps and bounds and, you know, and having the resources that we need to be able to put our people in various places. I mean, he's the travels all you were in Cabo. I want you to tell him about the group that you met with Cabo. And I mean, just 200 of these extraordinary people down there. He travels all over the country. And, you know, we have to have the resources to help. [30:24] to be able to do that. And, you know, so I hope the folks that are listening are listening.

[30:31] you know, go to Americans for Ibogaine. [30:33] You know how to tell them how to do that and help this organization because... [30:38] This is what I'm going to do the rest of my life. [30:41] I'm 76 years old, and this is what I hope the Lord gives me a lot of years. [30:47] to make a difference, because I know for a fact... [30:50] that what we're doing today, what you're helping us with, [30:54] is making a difference. And if we can get these clinical trials to the conclusion, and thank you to the lieutenant governor and to the speaker for what they committed to today, I mean, to know that we're going to be able to go forward now with these clinical trials, to show the world exactly what we know, but so that the naysayers out there, the skeptic, can look at that and go, you know what? [31:20] You can get 85% of the people who are hooked on opioids clean in 72 hours. Isn't that amazing? That's such a stunning thing to me. Dr. Gull Dolan, we were at South by Southwest... [31:35] Week and a half ago. [31:37] She was sitting on the stage. She's an MD, PhD, was at Johns Hopkins. She's over at Cal Berkeley now. And she gave a little... [31:47] primer, if you will, on the... [31:52] Different psychedelics. There's a critical period that the mind opens up and you're able to go in and, if you will, the medicine treats the mind, I think, for my Aggie, non-pharmaceutical, non-scientific mind here. But to go in and repair, reset the brain.

[32:14] The technical word is neuroplasticity. [32:17] but [32:19] ketamine [32:22] has a critical period. [32:24] I think she said... [32:26] 48 to 72 hours. [32:30] Psilocybin has a critical period from... [32:34] 14 to 28 days. [32:36] I think I'm pretty close on these. [32:40] But Ibogaine? [32:42] the critical period. [32:43] the time when that neuroplasticity is active and the brain can be trained, healed, reset, is from 90 to 120 days. [32:56] Thank you. [32:57] And then with the addiction. [32:59] which I happen to think is one of the most addictive substances that's out there. [33:04] I mean, this is some horrible stuff. You know, this very current event with Tiger Woods and Tiger's accident, you know, he had Oxycontin. [33:14] in his... [33:16] I'm not judging here, but I'm just kind of saying that may – when I ran for president in 2011, I'd had major back surgery in July. I announced that I was running for president in August. I had six weeks to try to get over that major back surgery, and I had a terrible condition called a neurological hyperfusion in my right leg. I've never had a pain like that. It felt like a blowtorch going down my right leg. And they gave me OxyContin.

[33:45] uh... [33:46] And I was taking that to cover up the pain. I was taking Ambien to go to sleep at night. And I was taking some stuff called ProVigil to get back up in the morning and be focused. [33:56] I [33:56] I laugh about it now. [34:00] I'm surprised I did as well as I did in that presidential effort in 2011. Hell, forgetting that one thing, that third thing in that debate. Hell, I'm surprised I could remember any of them, knowing what I know now about OxyContin and the incredibly... [34:17] nasty. Nasty. [34:19] addictive nature that it has. I mean, this stuff is just awesome. [34:23] poison and [34:26] I began. [34:29] in... [34:31] 48 to 72 hours after one dose. [34:36] one oral application [34:38] of this compound. [34:42] And that addiction is gone. [34:45] Not only is that addiction gone, Joe, [34:48] But Stanford has done... [34:51] Functional MRIs on an addicted person. [34:56] opioid brain. [34:58] and then treatment with Ibogaine. And they have shown that brain from the addicted brain [35:07] look that those experts, those postdocs that look at this. [35:14] to a normal brain.

[35:16] A normal brain scan in 72 hours. If you were to go through the normal process of healing yourself, [35:27] of [35:28] Opioid addiction. [35:30] through an abstinence program [35:32] It would take you 18 months, and there are very few, I'm going to say, single-digit people that are successful in being able to do that. But think about that. We've got a compound here that has the ability. [35:44] to heal people of opioid addiction [35:49] In 48 to 72 hours... [35:52] And, and [35:56] And we're not doing everything that we can in our power to make that available? [36:00] I mean, what the hell's wrong with us? How bad you got to hate people? [36:04] Do not make that available. [36:05] This episode is brought to you by Blinds.com. Texas summers don't mess around with patio surfaces easily reaching 150 degrees, hot enough to make your backyard feel like a punishment. And if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees. Get ahead of it with custom solar shades for your den and your patio from Blinds.com. [36:35] but still have access to real design professionals. They'll even send free samples. Blinds.com has been doing this for 30 years, and they back everything with a 100% satisfaction guarantee so you can order with confidence. Right now, my listeners can get an exclusive 40% off when you spend $500 or more at Blinds.com and use the promo code ROGAN40. Limited time offer, Blinds.com, promo code ROGAN40. Rules and restrictions apply.

[37:05] This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. One thing you probably don't think about when you're planning the perfect summer getaway is protecting your home. But if disaster strikes, you want to be prepared. Even better, if it can be stopped before it happens. So check out SimpliSafe. They're the smarter option when it comes to home security because their systems help prevent and stop crime in real time before it starts. There's also no long-term contracts and no technician appointments. [37:35] system and set it up in one afternoon by yourself or even sooner. It's one of many reasons why millions of people continue to trust and use SimpliSafe. Everyone deserves to have peace of mind, which is why I'm happy to partner with SimpliSafe again and offer an exclusive discount. Right now, you can get 50% off your new system by visiting simplisafe.com slash rogan. That's [38:05] Thank you. [38:06] And with two doses, it's even more spectacular. 98%. That is. [38:12] is amazing. 98%. That is truly amazing. There's nothing even remotely like it with standard practice addiction therapy. Nothing. [38:22] Nothing. You know, he mentioned the Americans for Ibogaine. We have ambassadors. [38:28] And Joe, what you really helped us do on January 2nd of 25 was create a movement. Our organization is the custodian of that movement. We are a public policy and advocacy organization, and Governor Perry mentions keeping me on the road.

[38:47] Citizens of conviction and influence, whether that is California, whether it's Massachusetts, or whether it's Alabama, we exist to plant the seed of a scientific understanding, of a public policy framework, and of a spiritual understanding of the significance of what we have in our hands here. An opportunity to improve the human condition at scale. [39:17] our ambassadors reflect [39:19] essentially... [39:21] The universal human condition and the way in which individuals who have tried every way to overcome various forms of trauma and debility find as... [39:33] The last step. [39:35] a redemptive restoration through Ibogaine treatment. [39:38] It is not for everybody. It should not be a first resort. It is an exceptionally powerful medication that comes with a series of side effects that are highly unpleasant, as you previously mentioned. One of the selling points, ironically, in the Texas legislature was to say, you know, if your idea of a good time is being in a state of semi-paralysis for 12 to 16 hours and throwing up continuously through the process, you're going to have a real good time. [40:08] And if there is the equivalent of being brought to the judgment throne of God on this side of life, it is an Ibogaine experience. That seemed to motivate a lot of support, especially for those who subscribe to puritanical notions of punishment for wrongdoing. That's not what I'm here to advocate, but certainly it is not fun. But what we know is that, for instance...

[40:32] We have two fashion model twins whose father sexually abused them for a decade. And the results of that horrific experience that they shared produced all kinds of psychological maladies that included an eating disorder for one, persistent neuroses in the other. They tried every form of talk therapy. They tried every psychotherapy modality known to try to overcome that. [41:02] Ibogaine that restored their lives and their capacity to enjoy life. [41:08] the life that God has given them. We have first responders who are emerging in numbers. One who is a firefighter from Oklahoma who was demoted because of decades of alcoholism. His life has been restored by him again and he's back working full time. We have a gentleman who was a Charlottesville police officer who was hit in the face with a brick. [41:30] during the riots that occurred in Charlottesville. His life was restored by a single Ibogaine treatment, and he has attained a level of functionality that he didn't think was possible, nor his doctors. We have a gentleman who was a pilot who unfortunately did a bomb and run on a village and killed a number of innocent people. He learned about this, and this sent him into a spiral, as many war fighters who are exposed to moral injury do. [41:58] Avogain has restored this gentleman's life. [42:02] A gentleman by the name of Robert Gallery, a former NFL player who exhibited all the signs of CTE in his post-retirement years.

[42:13] kill himself so that he wouldn't harm his own family. It was Ibogaine that restored his life. There have been other NFL players who are as yet unnamed, some incidentally that have been in the paper who have gone for Ibogaine treatment to address similar symptoms. [42:27] players in the NHL, players in other contact sports that include soccer and rugby and the United Kingdom, where there is an emerging cohort of professional athletes who have reached out to us to say, we want contact. [42:41] The United Kingdom for Ibogaine. I would love to get you guys connected with the UFC. We would love to be connected to the UFC. Because that is obviously an issue with professional fighters. So, Hughes, Matt Hughes. [42:55] Um, [42:55] And Matt had... I met Matt through Marcus. Gosh, I didn't like... [43:00] 2008 or so and we went out for a fight and then subsequently... [43:06] Um, [43:07] Matt [43:09] had, I think, a car accident, of which he really had a... He hit by a train. Yeah, just an incredible traumatic accident. [43:17] brain injury. And I just want to have that conversation with him. And I'm sure you have. [43:25] great relationships with those. We know for a fact [43:29] that cumulative... [43:32] impacts on the brain. [43:34] are... [43:36] What lead to CTE? I mean, I don't think that's even a question of here's how it happens. These multiple concussions.

[43:45] have cumulative effect on the brain, and at some point in time, [43:50] that [43:51] CTE [43:54] has a long time effect. [43:56] And... [43:58] This Madison. [44:02] has the ability. [44:04] to remove that [44:07] To reset that brain, to heal that brain. I don't know how it works, Joe, but that's the reason these clinical trials are going to be so important as we're going forward. And I can't tell you, I'm ecstatic that the lieutenant governor and the speaker today announced their full... [44:27] Texas support behind these clinical trials, we're fixing to become the epicenter. [44:33] Amen. [44:33] for a movement that literally can change the world. And I know that sounds kind of... [44:38] A little bit over the top. [44:41] But... [44:42] If we have within our... [44:44] grasp here, a compound that can heal our loved ones. [44:50] who have an addiction. [44:51] be it a substance addiction or be it a non-substance addiction. If we have the ability to heal people who have been traumatically impacted by concussions, if we have the ability to address problems, [45:05] PTSD and all the different forms that it comes. I mean, [45:10] The hope that that can give to the society that we live in, and I'm not talking about just the United States. You think about what's going on in Israel.

[45:20] in Ukraine, in the Middle East today, and the trauma that people are facing. [45:26] Thank you. [45:26] I mean, this truly can be an extraordinary gift to the world. And, you know, listen, I think it's really interesting. You ask a leading question about... [45:39] Thank you. [45:39] How did [45:42] I come to this position of being able to be supportive as I am. [45:49] Okay. [45:50] And when I think about my growing up, and I grew up in a very – [45:55] conservative Christian family. [45:58] And I think one of the challenges we still have in our society is that... [46:06] the... [46:09] The conservative Christian faith. [46:11] He's like... [46:12] Stay away from that stuff. [46:14] I mean, that's bad. [46:15] Do not... [46:16] under any circumstances. Don't be going there. It's demonic. [46:22] Aaron Ross Powell: Yeah. [46:24] There's a book that's about to be published. I think is it about, I think the first week in April, so we're approaching it. There's an author by the name of Wendy Reese, R-E-E-S, Wendy with an I, W-E-N-D-I-R-E-E-S. [46:40] And she, not unlike the two twins... [46:44] um, [46:45] was sexually assaulted by her own father. He was a pastor of a church. Joe, I'm telling you, brother,

[46:54] I can't... [46:55] I can't dream up in... [46:57] My worst nightmare. [46:59] a more evil thing. [47:01] than a father that would sexually assault their daughter. [47:06] and she dealt with it [47:10] with Ibogaine and has come to the conclusion that her great gift to give to the world out there is to write this book called A Christian's Guide to Psychedelics. Now, if you think that won't catch some people's attention when they're going through the bookstore and they're going, [47:26] A Christian's Guide to Psychedelic [47:28] Holy mackerel. [47:31] But... [47:31] This is a book. [47:33] about her experience. [47:35] But it's also a book... [47:37] that I would suggest that every believing Christian [47:41] Go pick it up and read it. [47:43] because it... [47:44] talks about chapter and verse and gives you scripture about where God talks about these compounds, about these things that he's given the world. He means them for good. [47:54] All of them for good. Are you aware of the scholars in Israel that are proposing that Moses seeing the burning bush was the acacia tree? Yeah, there's an acacia tree, the acacia tree, which is very common in the Middle East. [48:11] is rich in dimethyltryptamine. [48:14] And they believe that what they're trying to relay in this story is... [48:19] was that Moses encountered God through the burning of this bush.

[48:26] So the burning of this bush releasing the psychedelic compound dimethyltryptamine is [48:30] allowed Moses... [48:32] To bring back the Ten Commandments. [48:34] You know, thank you for mentioning that. I have been following scholarship around the use and the recognition that there's a lot of psychedelic allegory in Holy Scripture. That, I think, is the favorite, where that bird and bush reveals the great I am. And when Moses says, you know, who are you? I am who I am. [49:04] that is within each of us, and that I am as our eternal creator, who absolutely has engineered and placed these plants on this earth so that we can be affirmed in what our true identity and ultimate destiny is. And praise God for it. [49:20] And then there's also the sacred mushroom in the cross, the John Marco Allegro book, where he was one of the... [49:28] ordained ministers that was... [49:31] His task was to decode the Dead Sea Scrolls. And he wrote this book. [49:36] that details what he believes is the use of psychedelic drugs in ancient Christianity. [49:45] It's hard for me to argue with. I mean I just think our modern perception of it, which is very tainted by what happened during the Nixon administration where they were trying to squash the hippie movement, the anti-war movement, and the civil rights movement. And that's why they demonized these drugs, these compounds.

[50:03] And that's why they put them in this category of having no medicinal use. [50:08] which is clearly not accurate. It doesn't mean that they should just be given to everyone and everyone should do them with no restrictions and no regulations. [50:17] It just means we should understand that they have a long history of human use and have spectacular results on all sorts of things that our society is suffering from greatly. [50:35] What happened in the 1970s? [50:37] It's just insane. It doesn't make any sense. [50:40] I would suggest that one of the greatest lessons learned by... [50:44] Americans who are age 50 and younger, those of us who I call the bicentennial children, is that the most morally depraved criminal in America today is power. And the power of the human hand, when it is wielded in its most abusive context, will always seek to deny any access to individual human divinity and the liberty and autonomy that is conferred upon each of us as children of God. [51:14] precipice of what I believe is the emergence. [51:18] of a broad-based spiritual movement where all of us modernists within the empiricism of modern American society are able to see through the fog of all of our wealth and gadgetry and recognize. [51:30] We are in the midst of profound spiritual famine in the United States. You, I know, and forgive me for referencing age...

[51:40] Remember back in the mid 80s, [51:44] where we saw all these horrific images. [51:47] of starvation... [51:49] and dissension. [51:50] Distention. [51:52] And fly-covered death. [51:54] from Mass Famine in Ethiopia and Sudan. [51:58] where millions of people starved to death [52:01] because the malevolence of power forbade the delivery of any relief sent by the outside world. [52:10] Thank you. [52:11] When we look at what's right in front of us in the United States today, [52:16] There is no denying... [52:18] That we... [52:19] are in the midst. [52:21] of a terrible spiritual famine. [52:24] And the malevolence of American power is feasting on our starvation. This is... [52:32] An emancipation movement for the mind, body, and soul of every human being in this country and across the globe. [52:41] who is lethally... [52:42] from their own spirituality. [52:45] The Ibogaine mission is a mission to foment dramatic medical breakthroughs across a host of conditions that have no effective therapeutic answers. [52:57] But above and beyond that, it is about the affirmation of the spiritual essence of life. [53:04] That can unify us as a species in a way that is necessary if we're going to navigate these changes over the next 20 years. Governor Perry mentioned this wonderful invitation that I received to go to what was called the Earth One Summit.

[53:19] Now... [53:21] Thank you. [53:22] "'Joe, I come out of Hillbilly Holler, Virginia.' [53:24] and [53:26] I introduce him from time to time. I said, look, this guy... [53:33] He looks like and he sounds like a hillbilly from eastern... [53:40] in Kentucky and the Appalachian Mountains. And I said he is. But I said he's one of the most brilliant people I've ever met in my life and one of the most extraordinary orators I've ever had in my life. So anyway, I love you, brother, but you are a hillbilly. [53:58] I'm much more comfortable with that than all that other stuff you said. [54:02] But, you know, when you come out of scratch nothing sometimes, there are certain sophistications that you lack. And I'm no exception to that. [54:10] There was this Earth One Summit. It was 200 thought leaders from across the world who came to basically discuss the future. And I was very honored to have received an invitation to come and attend the gathering to speak about what Governor Perry and I are working on through Americans for Ibogaine. And they presented me with the honor of being the closing keynote speaker for the gathering. [54:40] who included... [54:42] Kimball and Christiana Musk. I've read interviews by Elon Musk speaking about the advent of AI and the capacity...

[54:51] of AI to solve the central dilemma that we as humans have had since we emerged from the caves, and that's the dilemma of scarcity. So as I was there listening to folks speak about being on the edge... [55:06] of a time when we can automate the means of production and essentially create an unlimited amount of abundance for every person on this planet, I couldn't help but, [55:21] But think about where we are right now. [55:24] as compared to where these individuals see us being in 20 years. [55:30] You cannot... [55:32] Create. [55:33] and deploy [55:35] This kind of God-like technology [55:38] which has the capacity to produce unlimited abundance. [55:43] potentially usher in the age of Aquarius and drop it in. [55:48] to these Frankenstein monstrosity government systems that we currently have. [55:55] that are enthroned upon the helplessness of powerless people, that perpetuate problems that they are supposed to solve, and that monetize sustained human misery. [56:07] So long as government makes its buck over keeping its foot on the necks of the American people, we are looking at a future that much more resembles Mad Max. [56:17] then we are Star Trek. And if we are going to create the degree of social cohesion that is necessary to hold these systems accountable and to create change,

[56:27] a system that can truly usher in that age of unlimited abundance to improve the human condition for all, it begins with a spiritual reawakening that I've gained first and foremost, and the rest of the psychedelics concede and foment within American society. To that end, and then I'll be quiet for the next little bit. No, I'll get it. You're good, man. We love listening to you. There is a six-part docuseries that will come out next year called Psychedelics And. [56:57] It is... [56:59] A series of interviews with a cross-section of leaders across the United States where they speak about their own quest for meaning and how psychedelics has helped them understand that we are more than just these material beings that get up and go to work every day and are a productive economic unit, go home and repeat. [57:29] scale in a way that's absolutely necessary if we're going to make that age of abundance happen as those visionaries articulate and dream for. What I think is fascinating about the age that we're living in is that... [57:43] change comes very slowly. [57:46] But it comes much faster when you have the kind of access to information that people have today. [57:51] And I don't think this conversation was possible [redacted address]. And that's kind of amazing. No way. It's kind of amazing. And I don't think that there was a format.

[58:00] for this conversation 20 years ago. This format has occurred because of the age of information, because of the Internet, and because there's no gatekeepers anymore. [58:10] And because people have the choice to decide what they want to consume, what they want to listen to. [58:16] and [58:17] To be able to be a part of that, to me, is an incredible privilege and to be able to have you guys on and to have this conversation and to recognize that the reason why this is possible is because – [58:32] For lack of a better term, the world's waking up. Yes, sir. [58:36] It's just taking more time than we would like. [58:39] But the world is waking up. [58:40] And change happens. It just happens. People have to change their opinions. [58:48] and [58:49] That's very difficult because a lot of people identify with their opinions. [58:53] The their opinions become a part of their ideology. [58:57] And it's just very difficult to get people to change their ideology. [59:01] they identify with this it is them [59:05] and [59:06] I've always tried to tell people [59:08] the way I try to approach things. You are not your ideas. You are not your opinions. These are just thoughts. [59:16] And if you identify with them, you are trapped in them. [59:19] And you will be held hostage by them. You will try to defend them, even if they don't make sense. You will try to ignore evidence that points you in a direction that's contrary to what your current belief system is.

[59:30] Don't be your opinions. Don't be your ideas. Just sit in them. Be consistent and [59:37] Be honest. [59:38] have ethics and morals that you adhere to. [59:41] But the ideas are just ideas. [59:43] And if you're wrong, [59:45] You should be proud to say wrong. [59:47] It's a sign of growth. It's a sign of intelligence. [59:51] And it's a sign of you being an honest human being who cares about the truth, not about being right. [59:58] Because there's too many people in this world that they don't really have conversations. They have ideological sparring matches where they're just involved in these... [1:00:08] little intellectual tugs of war where they're just trying to be right. [1:00:13] And... [1:00:14] This is not the time for that. [1:00:18] survive. [1:00:20] my going from [1:00:22] Hard no... [1:00:24] on [1:00:25] criminal justice reform. [1:00:27] to literally a leader on criminal justice reform. [1:00:31] in the... [1:00:32] mid-2000s. My going from hard no on any psychedelic drugs that could be used in any way. [1:00:40] to now being what I humorously refer to as the Johnny Appleseed of Ibogaine, is to your point. [1:00:51] be... [1:00:53] Be open. [1:00:56] Be willing to say you were wrong. I know my wife would like to hear me do that more often.

[1:01:02] But, hey, if you don't mind, I want to take a minute. [1:01:06] Thank you. [1:01:07] and talk about how [1:01:10] Far this movement has come. [1:01:13] Brian talked about Americans for Ibogaine and our ambassadors all across the country and the growth that we've seen in this. And I want to give you one example of, to your point of that, [1:01:25] Five years ago, if you had had an institution that had its own reputation dealing with brain health and brain science and those kind of things, they would have... [1:01:36] just kind of moved you off to the side and said, you know, no thanks. But the... [1:01:42] Center for Brain Health in Dallas. This is an extraordinary institution that's connected to the University of Texas Dallas. As a matter of fact, it's just next door to UT Southwestern, which is one of the great medical facilities in the world, UT Southwestern. And Dr. Sandy Chapman. [1:02:02] heads up the Center for Brain Health. And they've done some great work. We went up and presented to her, I don't know, [1:02:11] probably 60 to 90 days ago and and there is another [1:02:16] organization called [1:02:20] forward [1:02:21] uh... [1:02:22] Forward Intent. Forward Intent. Just a beautiful young man and his wife, Alex Duran. [1:02:30] and his wife, who...

[1:02:33] have funded an effort [1:02:36] And what they're doing with their resources, they're sending... [1:02:40] I think 250 individuals down to Mexico to both, I think, a facility called Transcend and to Ambio. [1:02:50] And Ambio is that facility that I've been to, Brian's been to, Marcus and Morgan Luttrell have been to, I think, you know, probably 2,000 more fighters have been down to Ambio now. [1:03:08] Just as an aside, this... [1:03:11] has blown up so big. [1:03:13] And I'm talking about... [1:03:14] the Ibogaine effort, the education of Ibogaine, people, you know, there's some hope out there. And people are rushing to find where they can go to, you know, to treat the addiction that their loved one hands or deal with their PTSD and what have you. And Ambio... [1:03:31] is just covered up. [1:03:32] And I'm sure, you know, the other facilities are as well down there. The organization VETS, which is really where I came into this, [1:03:42] Amber and Marcus Capone they don't have any openings anymore they are completely covered up [1:03:51] but I mean that's a good challenge I'm glad we have that challenge but my point is you've got to [1:03:58] an institution... [1:04:00] in Dallas, Texas, that just like the state...

[1:04:04] is getting the signal it's okay to be out there talking about this it's okay to to be a leader it's okay to get out there and and and lead the charge and i want to read to you uh what uh dr chapman um because i asked her i said do you mind if i talk about what you all are doing and she said absolutely and she said governor great to talk with you yesterday here are some comments to guide you and how to discuss our existing collaboration [1:04:31] Um, [1:04:33] I'm excited to announce that we have begun a partnership with the Center for Brain Health, the University of Texas at Dallas. Americans for Ibogaine and Forward Intent. [1:04:43] to create the largest research study of ibogaine to date, focused on [1:04:50] on understanding its impact on the brain among the veteran community. Dr. Francesca Philby, an expert in cognitive and translational neuroscience, especially the use of neuroimaging to study brain behavior relationships, will lead the research. Our mission together is to move beyond the question of [1:05:11] Does Ibogaine help? [1:05:13] and instead answer the more practical questions veterans and clinicians need. [1:05:18] Number one. [1:05:19] Who benefits and why? [1:05:21] How long do the benefits last? [1:05:23] Which aspects of daily life functioning, i.e. cognition, sleep, substance use, and overall well-being? [1:05:31] improve or worsen following treatment? And how are these changes associated with brain alterations?

[1:05:39] The three-year study... [1:05:41] will follow those treated with ibogaine over the course of 18 months, which will allow us to create the first understanding of the sustained impacts of ibogaine on the brain across various treatment regimes. [1:05:55] We'll be diving more into this topic on November the 19th at the Center for Brain Health's [1:06:01] Brain Health Presents Speaker Series. [1:06:04] to share more. [1:06:05] by bringing world-class scientific rigor to this space. [1:06:10] We aren't just studying a substance. We're creating a foundation of knowledge and, [1:06:14] that will expand safe, [1:06:16] informed access. [1:06:18] for those who need it most. [1:06:21] that [1:06:23] is what Americans for Ibogaine [1:06:26] is really all about. Making that type of penetration, having that type of success, seeing what Brian and the other folks... [1:06:37] have created here in the state of Texas. I'm going to tell you something, brother, there is nothing [1:06:45] that I've been involved with. [1:06:49] in my life. [1:06:51] that gives me more pleasure [1:06:53] than to see... [1:06:54] what we're doing, and knowing. [1:06:59] That there's a father out there. [1:07:05] Mother out there. [1:07:08] whose child can be saved.

[1:07:11] You mentioned dogma. [1:07:15] people [1:07:17] in particular in American society. There is a quest for identity. [1:07:21] There is a quest for belonging. [1:07:24] So much of what we see on social media and in broadcast media that is rage and anger and disaffection is tremendous loneliness and a tremendous lack of belonging to something and a tremendous amount of trauma related to heaven. [1:07:41] never having had anything that resembles [1:07:44] unconditional affection within the context of a safe and stable familial relationship. That's at scale within the United States. And the degree to which dogma can thwart evolution is 100% right on. And I just use my own self as an example. [1:08:01] . [1:08:02] Thank you. [1:08:03] I was a child of... [1:08:05] Reagan's America. [1:08:06] I can remember I was about five years old when he and President Carter had their first presidential debate in 1980. President Reagan was like the mother goose to the gosling. He just imprinted on me. And whereas other young boys had pictures of Joe Montana and Michael Jordan and Michael Jackson all over their rooms, mine was wallpapered with Ronald Reagan. I was the president of the Teenage Republicans in high school. I wrote him fan letters all the time. [1:08:36] He actually replied to one, and I put it in a frame in my room. It was written on my birthday. I was president of the College Republicans at George Mason University, and I mean I aim to be the king of conservative Republican conformity.

[1:08:51] That was my whole mission in life. And I used to joke that [1:08:56] when people said, "Well, how did you get to this? What do you think about the fact that you're talking about it and you're so zealous in your advocacy?" I would kind of make a half statement and say, "Well, if 25-year-old me could come and see 50-year-old me, [1:09:10] he would look and say, what in the world happened to you? And I would kind of yuck and yuck and laugh about it. Well, here's the answer. [1:09:18] Thank you. [1:09:18] If 25-year-old me... [1:09:21] could come back and look at 50-year-old me and say, what happened to you? [1:09:25] 50-year-old me would look right back and say, [1:09:28] You happen to me. [1:09:30] You happened to me. [1:09:33] your youthful sense of certainty. [1:09:36] Your belief that you had it all figured out. Your belief that you had no further greater evolution to achieve, sir. [1:09:43] You. [1:09:44] in your insolence of youth. [1:09:46] You happen to me. [1:09:47] And one of the things that I have so enjoyed learning about Governor Perry as he and I have built relationship, the first time I really started following him was when he ran for president in 2012. And I believe that had he not had that back surgery, we would not have had a second Obama term. He would have won that race, and I think he would have won it handily. [1:10:08] *Sigh* [1:10:10] It's been remarkable to listen to this gentleman who has been so firmly identified with the conservative wing of the Republican Party be so willing to be curious. [1:10:19] and to have that [1:10:21] Human value of curiosity and a willingness to hear and a willingness to know and a willingness to entertain that perhaps everything that he had been taught about this particular subject was not correct.

[1:10:35] is a prime human value. [1:10:37] And if you allow dogma to shut off your curiosity, you have hobbled yourself. And I think it was Muhammad Ali who said... [1:10:46] If a 50-year-old man thinks the exact same way as a 20-year-old man, as he did when he was 20, he's wasted 30 years of his life. And that is dead on right. [1:10:57] Dead on, Ryan. Yeah, I could attest to that. Curiosity is my number one attribute. That's the thing that's led me. [1:11:05] in life. [1:11:06] Everything I've ever done is just being open-minded and curious. I'm very fortunate is that I didn't think I had things figured out when I was 20 at all. I was sure that I was a moron. [1:11:17] I was good at one thing, kicking people. That's it. [1:11:24] realize that there's a lot to learn and that as much as I learned about martial arts, I [1:11:29] I can apply... [1:11:31] That sort of open-minded discipline. [1:11:34] Because you... [1:11:35] You have to be... [1:11:37] open-minded to be good at martial arts because you have to be able to listen. [1:11:41] You can't think you already know. [1:11:42] You cannot. You won't grow and you won't get better. You have to... [1:11:47] be listening to coaches, you have to be listening to instructors, you have to be listening to your teammates, you have to listen to everybody. [1:11:54] If you don't listen, if you don't tell me, those people don't go anywhere. [1:11:59] And I learned that very early on. It's very fortunate that I found that path because I've applied that to virtually everything that I've ever done in life. Instead of having this belief that I have things figured out. I mean I've certainly like been more sure than I should have been at many times in my life. But always willing to stop and go.

[1:12:19] Maybe I'm wrong. [1:12:21] And... [1:12:22] If it wasn't for this podcast, it would have never gotten to where it is because – [1:12:27] I've... [1:12:28] fortunately been able to talk to brilliant people. [1:12:32] And, you know, I grew up in – I lived in – [1:12:37] California for 26 years before that. I lived in Boston and New York. I thought of people – the southern accent in particular, right? Right. [1:12:48] then this is a standard thing that a lot of people on the coast have. You hear people talk with a southern accent. You think they're dumb. [1:12:56] And it's a terrible... [1:12:59] stereotype that actually came out because of hookworm parasites. [1:13:04] I'm sure you're aware of that story. I'm not. You're not? Educate me. [1:13:08] The stereotype of the lazy, dull-minded southerner came out of the fact that a large percentage of people in the South had contracted hookworms from walking around barefoot. And hookworm parasites will rob you of your intellectual capacity. They greatly diminish your ability to think. Yeah. [1:13:34] exhaust you, you get slower and, you know, in quotes, lazier, but you're really just infected with a parasite. And it's an enormous percentage of the population in the 1900s. [1:13:47] were infected with hookworm.

[1:13:50] And in the South in particular, hot climates. And this is where this stereotype came from. When someone like you speaks with such insane recall, like your recall is bananas, like your recall of dates and names and times. And I have a pretty good recall. It's nothing like yours. [1:14:08] It's extraordinary. And I love when I meet someone who's brilliant, who still has a southern accent. Because it's like, forget all your stereotypes. Let them all go, baby, because they're not real. It's not real. [1:14:22] None of that is real. Individuals vary wildly. And, you know, I've met brilliant people. [1:14:29] from coastal cities, and I've met fucking morons that talk like a person that you would assume would be a highly educated, intelligent person, but they're closed-minded and – [1:14:41] foolish in their ways. [1:14:44] Having had this... [1:14:46] ability to have all these different conversations with different people it's just like every time i have another conversation just expands my understanding just a little more and a little more and a little more and i love it and it's all out of curiosity and i'm very happy that i've been able to make that curiosity infectious this episode is brought to you by dodge the new dodge charger scat pack is built for people who still believe driving should be exciting you want to [1:15:16] with a twin-turbo six-pack gas engine. All gas, no mercy, 550 horsepower, 0 to 60 in just 3.9 seconds, and a top speed of 177 miles an hour. Woo! Unlike vehicles that make you choose between traction and attitude, the Dodge Charger Scat Pack comes with standard all-wheel drive and a selectable rear-wheel drive mode,

[1:15:46] want it, and the freedom to still be able to do burnouts. Available in both two-door and four-door models, the new Charger Scat Pack. It's loud, it's fast, it's powerful, and unapologetically Dodge. Learn more at Dodge.com. Dodge is a registered trademark of FCA US LLC. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. When you're looking to hire, [1:16:16] availability, but even more important than that is someone's enthusiasm. They should want to be there. Finding the right kind of motivation isn't as tough as you think. You just need ZipRecruiter. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. ZipRecruiter connects you with qualified candidates instantly, and their latest feature puts the most interested ones at the top of your list, [1:16:46] with the right people at the start. Use ZipRecruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. My favorite cities, and I know we're getting off the beaten path here a little bit. I love to get off the beaten path.

[1:17:16] My favorite cities in America are those that you can go to and not feel like you're in the country. Miami is fabulous. It's a wild place. You should have a passport to go to Miami. It is fabulous. And I remember the first time I went to New York City one time when I was about five years old. The only thing I could remember was the Empire State Building and some dude with purple hair sticking his tongue out at me. Next time was in 2019. [1:17:46] head kind of that. [1:17:47] stereotypical southerners attitude a bunch of you know [1:17:51] Haughty, rude. Stuck up. Mean-acting Yankee people living in an obnoxious locale that would just be hell on earth to have to endure. So I had the opportunity to go and spend a day there and rolled into Grand Central Station on the railway from, I think it was New Haven, Connecticut. Yeah. [1:18:11] And just to watch the dimensions of the architecture as we rolled into the city. Crazy. The expansion of scale of this place. How old were you? Well, let's see. I was about to turn 44. I think I could hear the Beverly Hillbillies music playing in my head when I was going down through there. So we get off our Grand Central Station. And, I mean, I walked all through that. [1:18:41] of where the World Trade Center was. It was New York City.

[1:18:47] is a monumental human accomplishment. When you can have the entire world within 300 square miles, and it is a living affirmation of everything the United States is supposed to be as the last best hope of humankind on Earth, just to be in that place. Anytime I've gone back since, I mean the minute that I go to get the Uber at LaGuardia Airport [1:19:17] I would have never thought that I would just fall in love with New York City. But it is fabulous. San Francisco is the same way. Just incredible. [1:19:25] There are so many wonderful places in the United States where you wouldn't think that somebody necessarily who sounded like me would endorse. [1:19:35] One of the best things that I have done. [1:19:37] is stop watching television news. [1:19:40] The last time I watched television news was after the first Obama press conference in January of 2009, and I cut it off. Wow. Aside from presidential debates and election returns, I've never turned it back on. The number – I shouldn't tell this – the number of times – [1:19:59] I've left my front door wide open, the garage door open in my neighborhood, and nothing has happened. [1:20:04] is remarkable. [1:20:05] This country. [1:20:07] in terms of her people. [1:20:09] is as much like it was. [1:20:12] back in 1950 as it has ever been. [1:20:17] the complexion

[1:20:18] is a little different. [1:20:19] We've got a lot more diversity now. [1:20:22] than we've ever had. But once you take that blinder of mass media mayhem and all this fabricated division that is purposely put out there to keep us divided. To keep us tuning in. Tuning in and segregated. Yeah. Yeah. [1:20:37] Once you take yourself out of it and you just start having a conversation, [1:20:41] Next time someone gets into an Uber with someone who doesn't have English as a secret language, strike up a conversation. Ask them, how did you come to the United States? What brought you here? And your heart is going to fill with just the... [1:20:57] Unbelievable amount of pride and love to hear those accents from the Middle East and from Africa speak about this country in ways that take us right back to 1776. It's a fabulous place. And I'm able to say so much of this. [1:21:16] Because of what? [1:21:18] the plans have helped. [1:21:20] Clarify. [1:21:21] by way of that universal human divinity that we all share, that this country is the cradle to protect and to honor, which is what makes this mission so incredibly important. And I do want to – oh, I'm sorry. No, go ahead. Please. There's two people that I left off of our ambassador program that I think are really showstoppers I want to mention. [1:21:41] One is a gentleman by the name of Rear Admiral Jim Hancock. [1:21:45] This gentleman received eye-beginning treatment for his wounds of war. He was the Navy Medical Corps chief and was the medical officer for the United States Marine Corps. One of our other ambassadors is a gentleman by the name of General Glenn Curtis. He served in both Gulf Wars. He served in Afghanistan. His most recent stint of service was as the commanding general for the Louisiana National Guard.

[1:22:15] right now to join Texas as a partner in this Ibogaine trial. That's fantastic. Please say what you were going to because I'm curious. I don't even remember. Hey, well, I remember what I wanted to talk about. And I want to get us back on. [1:22:29] the track [1:22:31] that we were talking about, um, [1:22:35] You know... [1:22:35] Brian's done a great job to discuss the... [1:22:39] the spiritual aspect of the medicine and what I mean, that's incredibly important. Don't get me wrong on that at all. [1:22:48] But [1:22:49] what brought me [1:22:51] personally to the medicine. [1:22:53] obviously my relationship with [1:22:55] Marcus and Morgan and what have you. And then as I studied it, I'm like, [1:23:00] if you're really going to be [1:23:03] a legitimate spokesperson for this. If you're going to put your reputation out there. [1:23:10] You need to be treated. [1:23:12] you need to go through the treatment. [1:23:14] Thank you. [1:23:15] And... [1:23:16] I'm going to get to you. [1:23:18] at the end of this conversation, but I want to set this up, if I may, is [1:23:22] And... [1:23:23] In 2023, if my memory serves me correct, this is the same time that Nolan Williams was heading up the 30 veteran study that Stanford was going to oversee, kind of the early days, if you will, of some clinical trial type study. [1:23:41] effort to [1:23:42] have the data, to have the background. Some early day efforts to start educating the public about that is how I do this. They had 30 vets. I think they were between the ages of like 22 and 42. They all had moderate to severe PTSD. They were

[1:24:05] uh... [1:24:06] Some of them addicted to alcohol. [1:24:11] They were pretty classic drugs. [1:24:14] veteran population that had some real challenges. Um, [1:24:19] So [1:24:20] They were sent... [1:24:22] Well, to Stanford, and they did baseline functional MRIs. [1:24:28] And then they were sent down to Ambio – [1:24:31] just south of Tijuana. [1:24:33] where they were given the treatment. [1:24:37] And then... [1:24:40] That lasts, I think, about a four-day treatment protocol. You go down... [1:24:46] You work your way in... [1:24:49] Tuesday you get in preparation [1:24:52] Tuesday evening you get the compound. [1:24:54] Wednesday is a recovery day. [1:24:57] Thursday, there's a 5-MeO DMT treatment, and then you go home. [1:25:02] Thank you. [1:25:04] They went back to Stanford... [1:25:07] after... [1:25:08] five days after the treatment. [1:25:10] and had follow-up MRIs. I think they had an MRI at 30 days and then a functional MRI at six months. [1:25:19] So there was a good piece of... [1:25:23] of data there to look at. [1:25:24] Thank you. [1:25:25] Just stunningly good results. [1:25:28] Um... [1:25:30] And the results, I think there was 87% of them who...

[1:25:36] six months now, better than two years later, but that have zero PTSD. [1:25:42] The addictions were at that level of reduction that we talked about in the high 80 percentiles. [1:25:49] I mean, just... [1:25:50] I mean, we've seen all of this data before. This is nothing new. [1:25:54] But the reason I share that with you is that… [1:25:58] I basically went down and followed the same protocol [1:26:03] I wasn't part of the clinical trial. [1:26:06] But... [1:26:07] And I only wanted to be treated with Ibogaine. I did not want to take the 5-MeO-DMT. So what I was looking at, and I was interested in this from the brain regenerative side of it. [1:26:17] I had about as bucolic a life as you've ever had. I never had anybody mistreat me of anything that you could even get close to calling traumatic effect. I had no trauma in my life. I grew up on a dry land cotton farm, you know, 60 miles from Abilene, Texas, [redacted address] that had a post office in a part of Texas. It was just a lovely, wonderful, loving place. My mom and dad loved me, and I knew it. [1:26:47] My superintendent in my Sunday school class, who, by the way, were all the same person, and he drove the bus and was a football coach. [1:26:58] Mm-hmm. [1:26:59] non-traumatic [1:27:01] growing up period as you can imagine. [1:27:03] so

[1:27:07] I was... [1:27:08] concussed. [1:27:10] severely concussed. [1:27:12] Three times. [1:27:14] Twice in athletic events, and I'm talking about knocked out completely. [1:27:18] for over one minute. [1:27:20] And those are [1:27:21] Severe concussions. [1:27:24] Two times athletic events, one time unloading horses. [1:27:27] knocked completely out. So what I know now is that [1:27:32] As I got to pilot training... [1:27:35] And I started noticing that I was having trouble sleeping. [1:27:39] and that this [1:27:41] thing that I [1:27:43] understood later in life was anxiety. [1:27:46] had crept into my life. [1:27:47] So I had, I'm going to put it in the mild category, anxiety. [1:27:53] and [1:27:54] uh-huh [1:27:55] and insomnia. [1:27:59] I went into a very odd line of work in politics to have those two kind of things. [1:28:05] And I masked them rather well. [1:28:08] Most people didn't know I had that. My wife did. But other than that, even my senior staff in my... [1:28:16] My offices through the year, Agriculture Commissioner, Lieutenant Governor, Governor, they did not know that I had this challenge of maybe sleeping three and a half, four hours a night. [1:28:26] um... [1:28:28] being... [1:28:30] anxious at times to the point of being [1:28:33] Never dysfunctional.

[1:28:37] From my perspective, probably some people out there in the political world said, hell, Perry, you were dysfunctional the whole damn time. What are you talking about? Anyway, beside the point. [1:28:46] I had... [1:28:48] the treatment. [1:28:50] I had the [1:28:53] I had the brain scan going in. I had the brain scan a week later. And I had the brain scan at six months. [1:29:00] Thank you. [1:29:02] the... [1:29:05] First brain scan... [1:29:08] They said, look, your brain looks pretty good for a 73-year-old guy. He said, you know, you're actually in... [1:29:14] You're in pretty good shape. You don't have a lot of atrophy. You've got some mild atrophy. [1:29:19] But your brain looks pretty good. [1:29:23] The week... [1:29:25] after [1:29:26] Scan. [1:29:28] showed a 27% increase. [1:29:32] in the prefrontal cortex of my brain. [1:29:35] That's where you're... [1:29:36] Focus. [1:29:37] your concentration, your emotions reside. At a 27% increase in that prefrontal cortex activity. [1:29:47] My... [1:29:49] Six-month scan. [1:29:53] I have a... [1:29:55] dear friend who's a neurosurgeon from Tyler. [1:29:59] Dr. Charlie Gordon. [1:30:01] who is a [1:30:03] 40-plus year. [1:30:05] neuro [1:30:06] Surgeon.

[1:30:08] spine expert. Looked at lots of brain scans. [1:30:13] A respectful skeptic of this. [1:30:15] When I told him I was going to be [1:30:18] treated with this compound called ibogaine, this psychoactive compound. [1:30:24] He was... [1:30:25] recalled a little bit. [1:30:27] He was like, you need to be really careful with that. [1:30:30] . [1:30:34] He has now gone from being... [1:30:36] respectful, skeptic. [1:30:39] to looking at the data from the clinical trial that was done at Stanford, talking to a fairly good number of the patients, [1:30:47] veterans that went through that trial talking to Dr. Williams, talking to other specialists at Stanford. And he has gone from respectful [1:30:57] Skeptic. [1:30:59] to a full-on [1:31:01] in this medicine. I mean an absolute... [1:31:05] supporter that this medicine does what it says it does. It heals people of addictions. It heals from PTSD. This medicine does what it does. And we're driving back from the airport that day after the six-month scan. [1:31:23] Thank you. [1:31:23] He had looked at it as it came off of the machine. [1:31:28] And he said, Governor, [1:31:30] I'm not going to blow. [1:31:31] smoke up your... [1:31:33] Dress. [1:31:35] Thank you. [1:31:36] Your atrophy is gone.

[1:31:39] He said, I have no idea. [1:31:42] why this has happened, but he said the difference between [1:31:45] your [1:31:47] Initial baseline scan. [1:31:50] And six months later, [1:31:52] Clearly. [1:31:54] the atrophy in your brain is gone. He said, your brain looks like a 40-year-old. [1:31:59] Now, the reason I share that story with you is because, number one... [1:32:05] And that's partly what drives me about this, is that there is a regenerative aspect of this medicine that we don't really understand yet. [1:32:15] Thank you. [1:32:16] And [1:32:17] If it does what we think it's going to do, and that's the reason these clinical trials are just so stunningly important. That's the reason what the Center for Brain Health and what they're going to be doing and the data they're going to be collecting. I'm convinced of what this data is going to show. [1:32:32] Thank you. [1:32:33] But... [1:32:34] For all of those individuals out there who don't have substance abuse problems, who weren't traumatized as a child, but who have been concussed. [1:32:44] And we know that that damage is out there and that the cumulative side, Robert Gallery, that great professional football player who had really bad CTE. [1:32:58] And he will tell you today this medicine saved his life. [1:33:01] Thank you. [1:33:02] My question for you, Joe Rogan. [1:33:05] is [1:33:07] How many times do you think you've been concussed in life?

[1:33:16] I don't know. [1:33:18] I have no idea. Dozens. [1:33:21] Yeah, I'd have to go back and think about [1:33:24] times, um, [1:33:27] Most of it was from sparring or a few from fights. [1:33:31] But if we think about that, if there is this cumulative effect... [1:33:36] Yeah. Yeah. [1:33:38] Are you... [1:33:39] How old are you now? 58. [1:33:42] Bye. [1:33:43] Thank you. [1:33:43] Would Joe Rogan be willing to say, you know what? [1:33:47] I've seen enough. [1:33:49] I believe that this medicine does what it does. [1:33:53] You say it will do. [1:33:55] And for a person like me, [1:33:59] that it could be incredibly helpful. [1:34:02] To my... [1:34:03] um, [1:34:06] my long-term plan of living a long and healthy and engaged life [1:34:11] life that [1:34:12] Joe Rogan would go... [1:34:14] and be treated with Ibogaine. [1:34:16] This episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening to this podcast on your phone? If you are chronically online, like most of us are these days, your wireless network should be too. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G and unlimited hotspot, all powered by Verizon's 5G network. The perks of big wireless for half the cost. Visible isn't just a wireless plan.

[1:34:46] designed to keep you connected and no contract holding you back. Switch today at visible.com. Plan start at just $25 a month. Or get our premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code ROGAN, an exclusive offer for podcast listeners. [1:35:09] Did you know about one in three people with plaque psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? [1:35:18] Does this sound like you? [1:35:22] Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. [1:35:52] Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. [1:35:57] Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. [1:36:09] Yeah, I would definitely do it. I'm very fascinated by it. I mean, I've never heard anybody say, I wish I didn't do it.

[1:36:26] I met a lady whom I will call Lonnie. [1:36:29] And she had just returned from an Ibogaine treatment in November of '25. [1:36:34] And she relayed an early life of just ungodly physical abuse by her father, who was addicted. [1:36:42] to OxyContin. You know, we began this conversation about the realities of the opioid epidemic in America. While death is the most terminal outcome, is measured down about 700,000 Americans, there is a much broader web of hardcore travesty that exists around each of those death outcomes. And Lonnie experienced that. She had multiple concussions from her own father. [1:37:09] Like many individuals who experience trauma of this nature, she developed her own drug addiction. She was in and out of jail. She was homeless at different point in time. She managed to get recovered regularly. [1:37:20] She had a separate traumatic brain injury that was fairly severe in 2018. And then she was diagnosed with what I believe is called young onset Parkinson's, Parkinson's diagnosis that is pre-age 50. Her Parkinson's had progressed to the point to where she could not write because of the tremulousness in her hands. So when I saw her... [1:37:45] two weeks ago. [1:37:47] and she introduced herself. [1:37:49] She had all of the appearance and affect of a perfectly healthy human being. It was only after we sat down and she explained what her experience had been and where she was at now that the Ibogaine disclosure was made. Her hand was just as calm as mine. And she said that it had been essentially three months and that she had been able to resume a normal life and that her mind felt restored.

[1:38:19] I want to be very careful here. This is truly the edge of science. [1:38:24] And there is much unknown about the variety of Parkinson's that this can treat. There's some suggestion that. [1:38:32] It is better for those who have a genetic predisposition for the disease than it is for those who contract Parkinson's as the result of environmental exposure. Ibogaine does not appear to have any impact on Parkinson's developed as a result of exposure to environmental toxin. The stage of the disease at which you catch it also appears to make a big difference. The earlier, the better. It has also been asserted that Ibogaine does not cure Parkinson's. [1:39:02] slows disease progression, and creates for some a broad window of opportunity for the restoration of function that can dramatically improve the quality of life. Now, I'm just given a number of qualifiers about its impact and efficacy on one individual, but think about what we just said here. This is a woman who was diagnosed with young onset Parkinson's. She had lost the ability to write because of the tremulousness in her hands. [1:39:32] full normal life with a complete restoration of function. If we could get a COVID vaccine out, [1:39:40] In nine months, there is no reason why, with the focused effort of Texas and the other states we'll discuss here momentarily, that we cannot achieve the moonshot of our time within three years or less, and that is the completion of an Ibogaine medication that can be fully integrated into the U.S. health care system

[1:40:10] deploy through the medical system at a cost of $700,000 per patient. [1:40:16] sponsored by Indivior, which is one of the chief pharmaceutical developers of everything that we have that fails. [1:40:23] 75% of the time. [1:40:27] Thank you. [1:40:28] Yeah, I mean... [1:40:29] If we could do it, [1:40:31] It would be pretty extraordinary. [1:40:32] And if it is done... [1:40:34] I really do believe that it would have... [1:40:37] a complete changing of society when people have no hope and there's nothing. And then all of a sudden there's something that comes along that you do it once and it's an 85% effective rate. [1:40:47] And you do it twice, and it's in the high 90s. [1:40:49] I mean... [1:40:51] how many people are out there struggling with something, whether it's alcoholism, whether it's obesity, whether it's, you know, that's another thing. There's people that are [1:41:02] calming themselves with food. [1:41:04] Right. And it's masking. That's probably a sugar addiction, don't you think? I mean, from the standpoint of it is. But for a lot of people, it's there's something else. [1:41:13] For some people, it's sexual abuse when they're younger, and they eat. [1:41:17] It's – [1:41:19] Interesting. It's an addiction. And it's not just a physical addiction. It's a psychological addiction. I brought up gambling because I know a lot of people that are addicted to gambling. Pornography. Yeah, pornography. Sure. There's a lot of things. The non-session models we mentioned are ones who had developed those eating disorders, one of which was a compulsive eater as a result of that childhood sexual abuse. And Ibogaine was the treatment of last resort, not the first option.

[1:41:49] for Ibogaine website is truly extraordinary. And speaking of extraordinary, [1:41:55] When we came in here... [1:41:57] to push Texas. [1:41:58] Our belief was and still is. [1:42:01] and is now playing out at scale, that if Texas did this, [1:42:05] it would be joined by a number of other states. [1:42:08] who are no longer willing. [1:42:11] to sit and wait... [1:42:13] on an inefficient... [1:42:15] often incompetent [1:42:17] and also incompetently corrupt. [1:42:20] federal bureaucracy that will not move in response to the genuine needs of the American people at the pace that it needs to. There are a variety of well-intentioned reformers within the current administration, Secretary Kennedy, Secretary Collins, and others, who have voiced their support for the advancement of plant medicine as breakthrough treatments primarily for U.S. warfighters, [1:42:50] help. [1:42:50] We believe that these individuals are stymied by two realities. [1:42:56] The first reality is the Byzantine complexity of the federal bureaucracy, the degree to which it has been compromised by the institutional capture of much of its functioning. [1:43:08] by companies that make money... [1:43:10] on keeping problems alive. [1:43:11] We think they're probably also stymied by perhaps some other political cross-currents within the administration that... [1:43:19] view psychedelics with skepticism, and that are therefore willing to be indiscriminate in their resistance to the advancement of any of them, when in fact the advancement of this one is of existential critical importance as a breakthrough treatment for millions of Americans who need it now. And so to that end, Americans for Ibogaine following the Texas Success Act,

[1:43:43] convened a gathering of 200 people in Aspen, Colorado, in November of last year. These individuals were invited, appointed and elected state officials from 22 individual states, and aligned citizens of influence who would be willing, as the Texans were here, to get behind efforts in state legislatures to create... [1:44:03] a partnership with Texas that by end result will form. [1:44:08] the unstoppable external force through the states that can crash through the federal wall using not just their resources, but their political influence to execute one unified FDA drug development trial and to force the federal government to be responsive to everything that is required to ensure it is successful. So as we sit here today... [1:44:29] We have been working with elected officials. [1:44:32] in Alabama. [1:44:34] Georgia. [1:44:35] Idaho [1:44:36] Maryland, Michigan, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Vermont, [1:44:41] Oh, hi. [1:44:42] Pennsylvania, Florida, South Dakota, and California, each of whom have legislators who are willing to introduce and to pursue bills to join their states into Texas as this trial. Governor Perry and I spoke to the American Legislative Exchange Council as keynote speakers on December 5th of last year. This is an umbrella think tank organization for center-right, mostly Republican legislatures from across the country. Thank you. [1:45:08] In its entire existence, ALEC has taken two positions when it comes on the war on drugs.

[1:45:14] More prison... [1:45:16] More penalties. [1:45:17] More prison, more penalties. [1:45:19] Ad if and at them. [1:45:21] After we spoke... [1:45:23] about the necessity of Ibogaine's medical integration into the United States and the capacity of the states to force this reality into being, ALEC issued a formal position statement as well as model legislation endorsing what we call the American Ibogaine Initiative to bring the states all together to make this happen with one unified voice. And so now, as we sit here with you today, in the state of Tennessee, [1:45:50] Thank you. [1:45:51] There are two bills, one each, in the State House and the State Senate that are making its way through that legislature to join Texas. Before we walked in here this morning, the Tennessee Senate Finance Committee voted 11 to nothing to move Tennessee's bill forward to the full state Senate for consideration and what will, I believe, be passage. And I would like to give a shout out to a special sister by the name of Ricky Harris, who has led that Tennessee campaign. [1:46:21] Bill 1581, which are receiving good, considerate, deliberative thought by legislators there, but frankly need a little motivation. So if you're in Missouri and you want to see Ibogaine medicine for your family member, for your community, for your state, you call into the Missouri legislature and say, move the Ibogaine bill forward to join Missouri with Texas. Oklahoma, the Oklahoma House of Representatives has passed its Ibogaine bill. It is now pending in its Senate.

[1:46:51] has been introduced to join that state to Texas. [1:46:54] and in what I can only describe. [1:46:56] as Full Circle Justice. [1:46:59] The Kentucky Senate passed Senate Bill 77 by a margin of 35 to 2 to join Kentucky where this all began with Texas as a state partner in this Ibogaine drug development trial. It is now sitting in the Kentucky House of Representatives, so you if you are at home. [1:47:17] Please. [1:47:18] Call the Kentucky House of Representatives and ask them to pass the Kentucky Abagane Initiative so the state will not be left out. [1:47:27] Here are some just... [1:47:30] Unbelievable words are going to come out of my mouth. [1:47:33] The State of West Virginia... [1:47:36] Their House of Delegates by a vote of 96 to nothing, and their state Senate unanimously passed their Ibogaine bill to join Texas, and it has now been sent to their governor for signature. [1:47:47] and the one [1:47:49] that is the most poignant and moving for all the obvious reasons. [1:47:54] The state... [1:47:55] of Mississippi. [1:47:57] the crucible [1:47:59] for the triumph. [1:48:00] of uniquely American hope [1:48:03] over horror. [1:48:05] and of the leadership of Representative Sam Creekmore. Its State House of Representatives passed by a margin of 111 to 1, and its State Senate passed by a margin of 51 to 1. The Mississippi Ibogaine Initiative, which will tie the state of Mississippi with a $5 million appropriation from its opioid fund to Texas to develop the most powerful psychedelic on the planet as a breakthrough treatment for trauma and addiction for the people of Mississippi.

[1:48:35] That's incredible. It is going to be signed, actually has been legally signed by Governor Tate Reeves. And Governor Perry and I have asked. [1:48:46] for a special sign-in ceremony with Representative Creekmore, his legislative leaders there, to stand in Jackson, Mississippi, and see that sign-in to law as a matter of ceremonial formality. [1:48:58] What? [1:48:59] A wonderfully... [1:49:00] redemptive opportunity that we have here to shepherd. And we hope and pray that our organization can be sufficiently resourced and sufficiently engaged over the next three years so that we can see this process to conclusion. I'll mention a couple of others since we're talking about the capacity to make this a broad-based humanitarian mission that improves the human condition. [1:49:22] just Friday... [1:49:24] Before traveling down here on Sunday, I received a letter from the government of Gabon, naming Americans for Ibogaine as its official partner for the advancement of Iboga medicine globally. Gabon has 2.3 million people. It's got 100,000 square miles of territory that's the modern Garden of Eden. I've had the opportunity to take a trip there from, and I mean trip as in the geographic sense, not the psychosis. [1:49:54] in the ceremonial way sometime within the next year. We traveled there from January 6th to January 20th [1:50:01] And if someone would have said, when you go to Gabon, [1:50:05] You're going to have one of the most down-home experiences you've ever had in my life. It would have blown my mind. But it was a fabulous journey, one in which they were jubilant about our ability to demonstrate that what they call the sacred wood, in fact, is one of the most scientifically advanced substances that has perhaps ever been discovered. And we're honored that the government would choose us as their partner to move this forward.

[1:50:30] On Monday... [1:50:32] After a conference call with Chief Gary, [1:50:35] Batten. [1:50:38] I can confirm. [1:50:39] that the Choctaw Nation... [1:50:41] will seek to join Texas in the expansion of this Ibogaine drug development trial onto their sovereign territory as the third-largest Native American tribe in the country. [1:50:53] On April 7th, I will be traveling to Durant, Oklahoma, for what is being called the Inter-Tribal Council Meeting of what they describe as the five civilized tribes. That's their name, not mine. This is a gathering of the leadership of the Choctaw. [1:51:09] the Chickasaw, the Cherokee... [1:51:12] The most geeky. [1:51:13] and the Seminole. [1:51:15] We expect a passage of a resolution that I will be there to lobby for. [1:51:21] where the five civilized tribes will declare their solidarity with Americans for Ibogaine for the integration of this divine emancipator into the U.S. health care system as expeditiously as possible and make all of their resources available to explore the extent to which we can operationalize Ibogaine medicine as quickly as possible. And it's my hope and aspiration that we will see all of Native America join this effort before the end of this year. Can I stop you there? [1:51:51] so that they would be able to immediately establish retreats there? So similar to the way they have casinos? Because they don't have the same sort of regulations that some states do. Tribal sovereignty is an area of the law with which I am not familiar. I would not be able to speak to the degree to which they could autonomously open a clinic. The most immediate issue would be related to the creation of a supply chain

[1:52:21] states which should theoretically restrict it. However, [1:52:24] there is one spectacular opportunity not just to expedite the creation of Ibogaine treatment access for Native America, but for all of America. And this gets into federal right-to-try legislation, authored by former U.S. Senator Kirsten Sinema and signed by the president during his first administration in 2018. What federal right-to-try legislation, or the law, provides is that – [1:52:53] Once [1:52:55] Any medication makes its way. [1:52:58] through phase one safety testing within the FDA's process, then anyone with a life-threatening condition for which that medication is being developed... [1:53:09] can request treatment with that medication and obtain it from a Willen prescriber. [1:53:15] What does that mean? [1:53:16] That means... [1:53:18] That is soon as Texas. [1:53:21] or as soon as one of the native tribes effectively completes a Phase I safety study under the language of the law, [1:53:31] anyone. [1:53:32] who has a life-threatening condition for which this medication is being developed, first and foremost, opioid dependency, can go and request. [1:53:41] and get the treatment. [1:53:42] we have one complication. Presently [1:53:46] the Drug Enforcement Administration, [1:53:49] in keeping with the practice of many government agencies that use their arbitrary authority to interpret law, has asserted that federal right to try does not apply to Schedule I substances. This means that based on not the language of the law,

[1:54:07] but on DEA's interpretation. [1:54:11] preference of that law. Once Ibogaine clears through Phase 1, it would be disqualified for access under a federal right to trial because the DEA says that if Schedule 1 substances [1:54:23] were intended to be included, they would have been specifically listed in the legislation. [1:54:30] When Kirsten Sinema, the author of the bill, explained to them, [1:54:34] that the language is unambiguous and it says any medication [1:54:39] Their response was insolence. [1:54:42] and a refusal to honor what the statute actually says. [1:54:46] which is one of these numerous examples of the use of fictitious legal realities to do violence to legitimate reality. The DEA needs to be told to relent on its misinterpretation and extrajudicial interpretation of federal right to try, to interpret it as written so that once indignation, [1:55:06] Any Phase I study on Ibogaine is completed. Delivery can be effectuated through the medical system immediately. [1:55:14] And I might add one of the challenges that I've seen over my 40 years of being involved in government is that bureaucrats – [1:55:24] The easiest and the safest answer for a bureaucrat is... [1:55:28] is no. [1:55:30] And I think that's part of what we're running into in D.C. with the DEA. Okay. [1:55:36] One of the issues that I certainly hope and pray as we go through the summer and as we see what's happened in Texas and Mississippi and these other states is

[1:55:47] that we'll have the opportunity to sit down [1:55:50] with President Trump. [1:55:52] and to just share with him [1:55:54] what we're doing, what we're seeing across the [1:55:56] the country and that we could potentially have a conversation about the rescheduling of Ibogaine from 1 to 3. [1:56:07] two or three, you know, just get it out of that schedule one, which there's no reason in the world. You've talked about this many times. [1:56:15] Joe, that Ibogaine is on Schedule 1. [1:56:18] It does have medical purposes. I mean, it's very clear it does. And secondly, it is not addictive. So the idea on its face... [1:56:27] that Ibogaine is... [1:56:28] Um... [1:56:30] shown is this [1:56:31] Schedule 1 compound is just [1:56:33] fallacy [1:56:34] Well, the Schedule I, the sweeping Schedule I act of 1970 is just nuts. They just threw a bunch of stuff in there. Many of the things that aren't even psychoactive. [1:56:42] A question – [1:56:44] The aboga tree. [1:56:46] Can it be grown in the United States? [1:56:49] Yeah. [1:56:49] Theoretically. [1:56:51] Is it climate dependent? It's climate dependent. [1:56:55] It's soil dependent. It is considered an entourage plant whereby it absorbs [1:57:03] essentially [1:57:05] the essence, not just of the soil around it, but of the other botanicals. One of the things we learned in Gabon is that much like we have grape varietals in California for all the different kinds of wine that they produce, there are different varieties of the Iboga shrub. How it grows in the north of the country is very different than how it grows in the south. In terms of the amount of compound that's in it or the type of compound that's in it? The potency, the strength, the strength.

[1:57:34] the nature of its effect on the person, uh, the way that it kind of, uh, facilitates the, the spiritual journey. There's some of it that will kind of have a dark angle. There's some of it that has more of a light angle, uh, [1:57:49] We are just really scratching the surface of knowledge as to all the ways in which it can vary based on how it grows naturally. One of the most fascinating things that we learned there, and this is going to give you chills. [1:58:04] We visited a five-hectare, they use the metric system, we visited a five-hectare Iboga plantation right in the center of Lieberville. [1:58:14] that is run by one of their former prime ministers. It's an experimental form to kind of understand politics [1:58:21] how it grows, the optimal ways in which to grow it, and what different outcomes are. So as we were walking along, we came to these two small bushes. It takes for about 10 years to come to maturation. We come along this pathway, and they were two shrubs identical, growing just a couple of feet apart from each other. [1:58:42] And they pointed those out and said, can you? [1:58:44] Now, what does that look like to you? And I said, well, those are e-bogus rubs. And they smiled and they said, well... [1:58:50] It would appear so. [1:58:52] Thank you. [1:58:52] Because they are identical. [1:58:54] They said, but in nature... [1:58:56] When you find any bogus rub... [1:58:58] You're going to have to be very careful to determine which one's which because in nature it looks like they grow in pairs.

[1:59:04] 1 [1:59:06] is the real deal. [1:59:08] The other... [1:59:09] Is it's poison imposter. Oh. And they grow together. And they look identical? They look identical. How do you differentiate? It's not until they get fully grown. [1:59:20] into their 10th year. One bears fruit, [1:59:24] which is the real deal, and the other does not. Wow. Now, how does that do you for the physical communication of a mystical spiritual reality? So it takes ten years for it to come to fruition to the point where it could be useful? [1:59:39] No. You could use it before then, but you don't know whether you're getting the real deal or you're just killing yourself. When you see them grow in pairs, that's correct. So there's one group of people who know how to differentiate. One of the things that we learned is that there is a healthy underground international market for the bark. Just like we use vitamin B complex or we use valerian root to help us go to sleep, [2:00:09] Mental acuity and just like drinking a cup of coffee. I mean, to get the psychoactive effect, you have to eat like five big, huge heaping plates of this stuff over the course of time. It's so bitter it will burn your mouth. I mean, it's an Olympian ordeal. Yes, sir. It's an Olympian ordeal to consume the amount of bark that's necessary to get that mystical effect. And you're sicker than a dog the whole time you're doing it.

[2:00:39] prominent. And they explained that what poachers will do is that they will take the poison imposter and basically like the street supply where you put pollutants in with cocaine or whatever here. They put that imposter bark in with the real because you cannot visually differentiate. The Umbongo pygmy [2:00:59] who we had the privilege of meeting, who hosted us for an overnight ceremony of blessing and protection. It was just phenomenal. [2:01:06] They apparently can just taste. [2:01:09] The bark, even when it's mixed together, and they can tell if it's adulterated with the imposter. Wow. But to know that. That's like sommeliers of Ibogaine. Yes. [2:01:21] That's a great way to put it. An Ibogaine sommelier. Might have to go over and get tutored. Yeah, I wonder what that process is like. [2:01:30] Boy. Well, it seems to me that with... [2:01:35] The incredible effectiveness of this compound and it being adopted by all these states, he said – [2:01:42] It almost seems inevitable. [2:01:44] that change is coming. Well, here's what we need. [2:01:47] to make change happen. [2:01:48] Okay. [2:01:49] We need the DEA to get on board. Well, we need the DEA to get on board, but we need one man. [2:01:55] to get on board. [2:01:56] And that man is the President of the United States. We're here to recognize America in her 250th year. 25 of those 250. [2:02:06] 10% of time. [2:02:08] has been spent at war.

[2:02:11] And there are conditions unique to war [2:02:14] that only this medication can responsibly address in a way that nothing else can. [2:02:20] If... [2:02:22] There is an opportunity. [2:02:24] to improve the human condition at scale, particularly for those who are even right now. [2:02:30] "Ban marched in to go and fight yet another war. [2:02:34] Taken Executive Action. [2:02:36] That would direct... [2:02:38] I began to be moved to Schedule 2. [2:02:41] that the provisions of the Halt Fentanyl Act be applied to the Texas Multistate Ibogaine Drug Development Trial, that the DEA be directed to interpret federal right to trial so as to not exclude Schedule I medications that are in drug development, and that it be appropriately interpreted so that any medication that makes it through Phase I can be accessed by a person with a life-threatening condition, and then directed. [2:03:08] that federal scientific research agencies, whether they be within Health and Human Services or the Pentagon, come alongside the states in direct partnership to fund and foster the accelerated pharmacological development of ibogaine so that this medication can make its way all the way through the FDA's process with their supportive guidance. [2:03:30] within three years or less. [2:03:32] It is the moonshot of our time. And if there's a humanitarian legacy to be left for the ages by a president who very much wishes to...

[2:03:42] to have a legacy that is well reflected upon by posterity. This is one of the most monumental opportunities he has to help folks at scale in a way that no president perhaps has before. We're at an inflection point in history, not just for this country, but globally. Well, I certainly hope that this message reaches the president. [2:04:05] and I will try to make sure that it does. [2:04:07] Thank you, sir. [2:04:09] I mean, I think in terms of the amount of people that it can help and the crisis that our country is enduring with opiate addiction, with PTSD, with all sorts of trauma, with CTE, from sports, from car accidents and what have you. [2:04:25] I mean, this is... [2:04:27] It's astonishing that this is even a struggle. [2:04:31] When you consider the effectiveness of this, it's astonishing that we have to plead and that you have to put in so much work. And kudos to you for doing that. And kudos to Dan Patrick for this recent adoption of it here in Texas. [2:04:48] I just can only hope that momentum is on... [2:04:51] the side... [2:04:53] that's correct and that this is implemented through the entire country and that people wake up and realize we can help people [2:05:00] And everyone at this point in time, because the opioid crisis, everyone's touched by this. Everyone has a family member. Everyone knows someone, a friend, a neighbor, everyone. Everyone knows someone who's been hit by this.

[2:05:12] I have friends that have [2:05:14] No problems with anything else. And they had an injury. [2:05:17] And got hooked on opiates and had a terrible time kicking it. [2:05:24] I... I... [2:05:25] I'll use the word demonic. I don't know any other way to describe it. It's a good word. It robs people of their life. And... [2:05:32] and [2:05:33] To have seen, you know, back in Kentucky... [2:05:37] where this all started, in my opinion, in your work there. [2:05:41] and to have... [2:05:43] Uh, [2:05:44] the success that we're seeing now in Kentucky. [2:05:47] and having it blocked historically when you were there at the opioid [2:05:51] Abatement Commission and the current governor being a part of that blockade, if you will, former employee of the Sackler family, and today to have the opportunity. [2:06:05] uh... [2:06:06] for the Kentucky... [2:06:09] People of Kentucky. [2:06:10] to finally get the opportunity to make right. [2:06:15] what they got... [2:06:16] so tragically impacted by back in the [2:06:20] late 90s and the 2000s. I mean, it gives me great hope, not just for this country, but for the side of righteousness. [2:06:32] that this happens in a big and a powerful way. Hear, hear. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list, not one more. With Carvana, it is. Just go to Carvana.com, enter your license plate or VIN, and get a real offer down to the penny. No back and forth, no surprises, just an experience you can trust. Like your offer? Accept it. Schedule a pickup, and we'll come to you with a check in hand. Your car, your timeline, your terms.

[2:07:02] To sell your car today. Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. [2:07:06] This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Once you've got a great name for your business, you need a great domain. And Squarespace makes it easy to lock in a domain. You just search the name you want, buy it, and then you're ready to build. No hidden fees, no weird upsells. Go to squarespace.com slash Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the code Rogan to get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. [2:07:35] He mentions the Kentucky experience. [2:07:38] Before we rolled out the Ibogaine initiative there and stood up the Opioid Commission, I thought our first job was to go and to hear from the people of the state. You know, we were getting a billion dollars in settlement funds. This money was coming to us because thousands of their family members had died. So recognizing that confidence in government is at an all-time low, I thought it was important to go out and say, hey. [2:08:03] Here's who we are. Here's the job we've been given. Here's the resource we have. Tell us. [2:08:07] What need you have in your community that we can look to fund? This is something that needs to be accessible to grassroots organizations. It needs to be accountable to you as people. And we need to make sure we're transparent with how we use this money. But our first job is to listen. [2:08:24] 20 town halls across the state Tuesday evenings from 6 p.m. until we wrapped up. What began as a 15-minute technocratic presentation of what this state commission does turned into...

[2:08:36] These things. [2:08:39] these [2:08:40] Mass. [2:08:41] catharsis events. [2:08:43] were hundreds of people. [2:08:45] thousands over the course of those 20 town halls, poured out the depths of their grief right at our feet. And after they did... [2:08:52] The sum total of their response to us was... [2:08:56] We don't think... [2:08:58] That you have... [2:09:00] The competence... [2:09:01] Or the integrity. [2:09:03] To do anything that's going to make a meaningful difference in this life. [2:09:07] in our lives. [2:09:08] And we don't expect one cent of this money is going to make the least bit of difference for us. At one of these town halls, I heard about... [2:09:16] a young woman by the name of Tamara. [2:09:19] And the woman who told Tamara's story was a volunteer at a clinic for the survivors of child sexual abuse. This particular clinic made sure that children received appropriate medical treatment, that they received proper therapeutic counseling, and that they were placed in family circumstances where they could perhaps be. [2:09:40] have a chance to have a decent life. So this volunteer told about meeting a young woman by the name of Tamara when Tamara was 10 years old, had been horrifically sexually abused by a family member. Tamara had to have a series of reconstructive surgeries because of how awful it was. And she said that she worked with Tamara for about... [2:10:00] two or three years, and that she... [2:10:03] went to her adopted family, and she hadn't been heard from since, and that she assumed that that was, despite how awful her circumstances were when she came through the door, that she managed to get well and go on and have a relatively functional and happy life, as happy as one can to be a survivor of those circumstances.

[2:10:23] This same woman said that... [2:10:26] About 10 years later, [2:10:27] she was volunteering at the Perry County Kentucky Detention Center and [2:10:33] the county seat of Hazard. [2:10:35] and that she was offering mindfulness and yoga classes to inmates there just as a volunteer. [2:10:42] And she said she went in one evening to teach her class. And she saw this young woman sitting in the corner after herself, kind of withdrawn. She didn't want to come participate in any of the yoga exercises or anything, and that she was looking at her. And she said, you know, even though she was an adult, she... [2:10:58] Looked kind of like what this young woman appeared, Tamara, when she was 10 years old. She said, so I walked up to her and knelt down beside her and I said, [2:11:08] Is your name Tamara? [2:11:10] And she said that young woman looked up at her. [2:11:13] and recognized and asked Brian and she said yes, how did you know? She said [2:11:18] I'm the volunteer who worked with you when you came to our clinic when you were 10. [2:11:22] What are you doing in here? [2:11:24] And Tamaray explained. [2:11:26] that because of the surgeries that she had performed to be reconstructed, they had given her opioids. [2:11:34] and that what began to treat her physical pain [2:11:38] she continued to rely upon to treat her tremendous [2:11:42] Spiritual and emotional pain. [2:11:45] And she had gotten busted by an oxy on the street. [2:11:50] by a deputy with the Perry County Sheriff's Department and put in jail.

[2:11:55] Now you think about what I just said about how this young woman's life got started off. [2:12:00] and the response of power to her. [2:12:03] was a prison. [2:12:05] This is why what we're doing is so necessary. And Governor Perry mentions one other reality that's important. [2:12:11] Some of your viewers may have seen a Politico article recently. [2:12:18] Published on Sunday. [2:12:20] about a presidential aspirant. [2:12:24] by the name of Andy Beshear. [2:12:26] who is the current Kentucky governor. [2:12:30] Thank you. [2:12:31] Andy Beshear [2:12:32] was the Attorney General of Kentucky before he was governor. He is the son [2:12:39] of his father, Steve Beshear. [2:12:42] who was governor for eight years between 2007 and 2015. [2:12:47] Andy's greatest accomplishment. [2:12:50] is being his father's son. [2:12:53] because he has never accomplished anything outside of his father's lap. [2:12:58] The legislature in Kentucky has been controlled by Republican supermajorities over the entirety of his term, and everything for which he claims credit actually belongs to them by way of accomplishment. There are a few things for which he can claim credit. [2:13:15] One is shutting down the state of Kentucky harder than Gavin Newsom shut down the state of California. [2:13:22] which resulted in the educational hobbling of an entire generation of Kentucky children who were already well behind national average standards on both reading and math.

[2:13:35] You could go to a liquor store or a strip club for months in Kentucky before you could send your child to a public school. [2:13:42] Andy Beshear is responsible for that. He shut down the state's entire economy. [2:13:49] He had an antiquated unemployment benefits system that he instructed [2:13:55] the director of to make sure that his contributors and his family members were placed into the front of the line, while regular everyday people at home got a busy signal for months on end and had no financial lifeline, while his family and friends got valet treatment. When this was discovered, he scapegoated the director of the unemployment system, [2:14:19] For following his own instructions, a guy by the name of Muncie McNamara. [2:14:24] And Mr. McNamara took his own life. [2:14:27] But the most egregious reality... [2:14:30] about Andy Beshear. [2:14:32] and his father. [2:14:33] pertains to the fact that they were both law partners at the law firm. [2:14:39] that represented Purdue Pharma [2:14:42] against the people of Kentucky. [2:14:45] and the litigation over OxyContin while they were law partners there. [2:14:49] Thank you. [2:14:50] Andy Beshear [2:14:51] and his daddy drew law partner paychecks off Purdue Farmer client bills while they were there. [2:14:59] and the people of Kentucky should have received a billion dollars but instead received a measly 24 million dollar payout from Purdue Pharma because Andy and his daddy's law firm malpracticed that case. The public record will establish that as part of the Purdue Pharma settlement 17 million documents were destroyed. The case was put under seal and as a condition of the settlement

[2:15:27] Their law firm was allowed to cure their malpractice of the case, which resulted in a $24 million settlement within days of Andy Beshear becoming the Attorney General. [2:15:39] That's right, the Attorney General. I said, I've been a Republican all my life. [2:15:43] And I have. [2:15:44] My family's been Republican going back to the Civil War. [2:15:47] Thank you. [2:15:48] I don't care if it's Gavin Newsom. [2:15:51] Kamala Harris... [2:15:52] Pete Buttigieg, that Illinois governor, Governor Pritzker, [2:15:58] Any National Democrat. [2:16:01] Who needs my time? [2:16:03] My effort [2:16:04] So [2:16:05] Whatever I can offer by way of volunteer resources to make sure that Andy Beshear never sniffs the sewer grate of the White House, they've got it. [2:16:15] In this Politico article, Andy talks about, in much the same way as other performative public piety purveyors, that his life is guided by the golden rule. [2:16:29] and the Good Samaritan. He likes to wear his Sunday school and deacon affiliations on his sleeve as so many other performative public piety figures do. [2:16:38] if he were actually going to preach the part of the Bible that he has lived in, [2:16:45] He would talk more about Judas and the 40 pieces of silver than he would any golden rule and the Good Samaritan. [2:16:52] And I just want to make sure that the people of home and the people of America know who this man is, as the national media takes up Kentucky media's grotesque narrative about his decency and tries to lie him into the White House.

[2:17:07] Thank you for letting me say that. It's been a long time coming. I understand. [2:17:12] Um... [2:17:14] Anything else before we wrap this up? [2:17:16] You think we covered it all? [2:17:17] I think we hit it good. Thank you, Joe. Thank you. You have been a really big supporter of this effort. Well, I think it's just incredible. I mean, I can't believe it's happening. You know, I'd always kind of given up hope that people would wake up. [2:17:32] to the... [2:17:34] powerful potential that a lot of these compounds have to [2:17:37] change people's lives. [2:17:40] Well, I'm sure there were some... [2:17:42] teachers of mine back in... [2:17:44] the 1950s that the idea that that little [2:17:48] bar-headed kid that [2:17:50] is obviously not paying a lot of attention. [2:17:54] could somehow or another [2:17:56] end up being the governor or the [2:17:58] great state of Texas. [2:18:00] and um [2:18:01] There's probably a long, long list of those, as a matter of fact. And I'm sure there's some people over the course of the last [2:18:09] 15 years as I've [2:18:12] matriculated up through the political process that said, you know, the idea that this guy is going to be standing up – [2:18:20] putting his reputation on the line for something like psychedelics is [2:18:24] that ain't going to happen [2:18:25] Thank you. [2:18:26] But it goes back to your point. [2:18:28] about be curious [2:18:30] Be courageous. [2:18:31] and make a difference. [2:18:32] And you're doing it, Joe Rogan. Thank you, man. Thank you. Thank you, too, Brian. Thank you.

[2:18:39] Do you mind if I share one last thing? Sure. [2:18:42] and [2:18:43] Because it is the 250th anniversary of the country, this comes from the heart. [2:18:48] you know [2:18:50] The bicentennial children have had the blessing of being the grandchildren of that greatest generation. [2:18:55] that overcame the Great Depression, defeated Nazism, killed Jim Crow, [2:19:00] and crushed. [2:19:01] totalitarian communism. That greatest generation lived, suffered, bled, and died to leave us the shining city on the hill. Over the past 50 years, [2:19:13] The Bicentennial children, or those who are known as Generation X, have experienced the mass extinction of family generations. [2:19:21] and community. [2:19:22] We are the first generational cohort of mass refugees from obliterated biological families who had to seek and build new families of choice based on the salvation bond of unconditional affection, rejected only. [2:19:38] the superficial, socialized separatisms of the skin suits into which we have been born. Over the past years, [2:19:45] 30 years. We have watched truth, justice, and the American way be overrun. [2:19:53] by institutional deceit. [2:19:56] white collar criminality, [2:19:58] in the thieving tyrant's will. [2:20:00] An odious alignment of official depravity which has produced the opioid epidemic. [2:20:06] the gravest engineered humanitarian catastrophe to play out within our borders since the end of the 19th century, in an epidemic which has disfigured the world.

[2:20:15] this country. [2:20:16] I [2:20:17] The 2008 financial crisis. [2:20:19] which forcibly dispossessed millions of us from the American dream, including 52% of African American homeowners, and sent us the bill for the cost of our dispossession, a bill that everyone under the age of 40 continues to pay through their lack of economic mobility. And finally, and most deplorably, 25 years of unremittent warfare, [2:20:42] which has taken exponentially more service member lives here at home by suicide than have been lost at battlefields abroad. [2:20:49] Over the last 10 years, 1.5 million Americans have died from drug overdose, alcohol-related disease, and suicide, a figure that exceeds the total number of war casualties going all the way back to 1776. We've got 102 counties with life expectancies less than that of North Korea. [2:21:19] to do the right thing, a figure that hasn't been above 30% since 2007. 80% of respondents to an October [redacted address] Journal poll have said that the American dream is dead. [2:21:34] you [2:21:34] Power has answered these unconscionable realities with a maelstrom of bureaucratic absurdity, [2:21:40] Impudent incompetence. [2:21:42] I [2:21:43] and predatory corruption, all with the blessing of the law which has used its power to bind, torture, and kill the truth.

[2:21:52] Yeah. [2:21:53] In the decades prior... [2:21:55] to July 14, 1789. [2:21:59] THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT [2:22:01] had ruthlessly... [2:22:03] imposed its burdens. [2:22:06] abusively. [2:22:08] imposed its costs, [2:22:10] and ravenously consumed the future of its people. [2:22:15] The arrogance of the aristocracy ultimately answered. [2:22:19] to the desperate determination. [2:22:22] of the peasantry. [2:22:24] and its guillotine blade. [2:22:26] Thank you. [2:22:27] We are here to pursue one of the greatest humanitarian missions ever undertaken, to serve and exalt the primacy of the human soul. As we sit here right now, [2:22:39] There are millions of Americans who have... [2:22:42] No sense. [2:22:43] of greater purpose, or of even why they are alive, who mourn to see the sunrise when it comes up in through their windows. And what they need to know... [2:22:53] is that they are indeed divine. [2:22:56] There's only one thing that is known to produce iron. [2:22:59] and that's the supernova of a star. The iron in our blood originated in a supernova eons ago. [2:23:08] Every human being has stardust... [2:23:11] running through their blood. [2:23:13] And the movement that Governor Perry and I are leading is one that aims to recognize the reality of that human divinity. [2:23:21] .

[2:23:22] We are desperate. [2:23:24] And we are determined. [2:23:26] And we will crawl the last mile to deliver. [2:23:30] Good tidings unto the meek. [2:23:32] to band up [2:23:34] The Brokenhearted. [2:23:35] To proclaim liberty to the captives. And the opening of the prison to them that are bound. Glory, glory, hallelujah. [2:23:44] The truth is marching on. And thank you, sir, for letting us proclaim it right here on your platform, the Walter Cronkite of our age. That was a beautiful way to end it. Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen. Bye, everybody. [2:24:10] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist and trust me, I know... [2:24:36] I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier and isn't getting more time.

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