Talking Dateline: In the Matter of Alex Murdaugh

[00:00] Prime Day is June 23rd through the 26th? These deals are so appealing. Like portable steamers for steaming. Whoa, did I just sing soprano? I think I'm breaking into song. Epic deals on air fryers, vacuums, and skincare. [00:19] I can't stop singing. Shop Epic deals this Prime Day, June 23rd through the 26th. I think that's it. Nope, there's more. [00:30] What is generosity? Is it smiling at a stranger? Is it helping a neighbor move? Is generosity sharing your good fortunes? There is power in generosity, not just for those who give, but for those who receive it and witness it too. Every act of generosity, big or small, creates a ripple effect. And as Canadians, generosity is in our DNA. It's in the people we love and the places we call home. Visit CanadaHelps.org for more ways to be generous. [01:05] Hey everyone, I am Andrea Canning and we are talking Dateline. And today I'm joined by Dateline producers Carol Gable and Haley Barber. Thanks for joining us today. Hey Andrea, thanks for having us. I feel like we'll never stop talking about this story.

[01:30] about this new trial is just incredible. Our friend and colleague Craig Melvin is the correspondent on this episode, and he did some really great interviews and reporting. [01:41] Before we get to that, [01:43] Can you just give us a really quick recap about this case? It started with a call to 911 with Alec Murdoch, who is a very prominent Hampton County attorney. And he's saying that his wife and son are dead and he's found their bodies. And investigators rush in. [02:13] And we learned that, in fact, it's Alec who is the chief suspect in this case, that all of the information from his car put him at the scene. And then, of course, we get to the trial and we have the verdict that was seemingly conclusive. Alec had been sentenced to back-to-back life sentences and appealed the murder conviction. [02:43] the kind of drama surrounding this case has centered on the clerk of court, Rebecca Hill. And after the trial, there were some allegations that she had maybe done some things with the jury that... [02:56] weren't above board. Alec appeals his case to the state Supreme Court. They agree to hear it. And ultimately, that's how we ended up here with this kind of landmark breaking decision. Yeah. Wow. Becky, Becky, Becky. As the justices said, she put her finger on the scales of justice, which really just...

[03:18] Yeah. [03:30] I mean, when I watched this, [03:33] It was incredible. I mean, first of all, all of you did such a good job putting this story together. [03:40] But I mean, trying to fit all of this into a two hour show was I my head hurt. Try just trying to imagine all the details that probably didn't even make it. Yeah, it's hard to summarize these past years, Andrea, since this murder happened in 2021. But the other thing that we sometimes forget in light of the murder coverage is that Alec was also accused of. [04:03] and ultimately pled guilty to so many financial crimes. He was stealing from his clients who we have met, some of them, and... [04:13] a lot of them don't have the means that he had and people often ask what is it about this case that has [04:20] just so captivated the world. And I think... [04:24] The curtain was really lifted on this small town where this family really was so trusted by such a group of people. And the betrayal that is still felt when you go there is really something resounding. You could really sense just the power of that. [04:43] that this man had, Alec, and just the family, you know. Well, they straddled two legal universes. On the one hand, you had Alec's dad, who'd been the district attorney for years and years and years. And then the law firm that certainly made a name for themselves in so many product liability and other personal liability cases, I mean, just have made a fortune.

[05:13] about Alec's dad. I mean, he would walk up to a jury, and while he was waiting for things to go, he'd say, hey, Elaine, how's the baby? You know, he just knew everybody, and they all knew him. So it's very deep. It's generational and... [05:32] You know, now books, movies, podcasts about this. It's everywhere. It is. Yeah, I was actually thinking as Alec is waiting for the police to arrive and you see the body cam. [05:46] And you know this history of this man and this family. And even though police, obviously, law enforcement, you know, has to keep an open mind from the get-go, right? But at the same time, you're thinking, I'm thinking, I wonder if their first instincts are like, no way could he have done this. You know, he's this lawyer, his family, you know, have such deep roots in this community. [06:16] sealed off where the bodies were found. But, you know, friends and family were gathering already quickly because the news spread amongst their circle and people rushed to the house. And that was not cordoned off as part of the crime scene. And I don't know if that was, you could call it a mistake or you could call it sort of acknowledgement of who this family was and that they, you know, were definitely going to get together.

[06:45] Yeah, I mean, and I was thinking to myself, all those guns in the house— [06:50] Wouldn't you want to immediately... [06:52] secure that to, you know, for testing and like to see if... [06:58] Maybe they were shot by one of those weapons. I don't know. Just seems like it would have been a smart thing to do for law enforcement. [07:07] Yeah, and it's a sprawling and confusing crime scene in a lot of ways. You know, Elec is down at the kennels, but the house is actually a ways away. This is a big property. And the one thing I think... [07:20] that Colleton County really did well was they called in the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division right away. They said, we need backup. We need help. But by the time those agents arrived, you know, this was late into the night and it's pouring rain. The crime scene had been [07:37] sitting out there for a long time you know this lead sled investigator agent david owen um he kind of reflected on the magnitude of arriving at that scene and a lot of people even if they weren't familiar with alec they had heard about the boat accident in 2019 that had happened with paul um and even those first investigators that arrive you can hear them on the body cam saying did you hear what the name is this is this is the murdochs wow and yeah and [08:07] you know, the boat accident is brought up [08:11] immediately. [08:13] Well, and I think, in fact, Alec says right there, he brought it up right there on the scene that, you know, he thought that perhaps this was revenge or some sort of get back at the family because of the boat accident when Mallory Beach was killed.

[08:33] I was wondering about the timing of all of this, you know, where he is supposed to appear in court to, you know, hand over his financial documents to disclose what's going on. And then... [08:46] his wife and son... [08:48] are murdered. [08:49] Well, I think one thing we've heard is that – [08:54] Alec had been delaying turning over this financial information for a long time, kicking that can down the road. And that he was told by the Mallory Beach legal team that if you don't turn this over, then I will sue Paul and Maggie in Beaufort County. [09:24] And there's also an element, I think, that he was afraid that when he started turning over financials, somehow there's the strong suggestion that he thought this would be the string that would unravel all of these financial misdeeds that he'd been doing for years. [09:45] But, you know, you then have to, as a jury, think that that... [09:51] thread that was unraveling led straight to motive. And boy, that is a jump that you think, because you're about to unravel completely financially, that your remedy is killing your wife and son. That's a big step to make. And that was something else I wanted to talk about. I mean, obviously, we unfortunately see all too often husbands killing wives. I don't think that's

[10:21] but to kill your own son. [10:24] That's the part that, I mean, both are obviously horrific, but that one is harder to [10:31] to wrap your brain around. Yeah, and I think [10:35] we should probably... [10:37] importantly say that the defense really disputes this motive that Alec would commit such a heinous crime to distract what was going on in his financial life. They would tell you an [10:51] They say Alec would tell you he was extremely close to Paul. And by all accounts, there's a video of Alec and Paul riding around the property in the evening, hours before this murder takes place. And they're looking at the sunflowers and you can hear them laughing. It just doesn't make sense. [11:13] It's very hard to fathom. Well, which begs the question that when you've got [11:20] them all being pretty jovial on that infamous video down at the dog kennels. It [11:27] You're then having to believe that that tenor of that conversation turned quickly because they're dead moments later. So then who did kill them? And that is something that the defense has said that they've got some leads on who it possibly was. Now, they did not present those at the trial where he was found guilty. So we'll see if they come up with more.

[11:55] And as we get towards, I want to talk about the next step in all of this, but I'm so curious what you thought, what people who are watching the trial, covering the trial— [12:07] Alec really... [12:10] is emotional or appears to be very emotional on the stand to the point where like actual snot, pardon my language, that's not a bad word, but it's kind of gross. But it's coming out of his nose. And I mean, I just thought to myself, oh, wow, like, you know, normally – [12:31] let's say he wasn't [12:32] being looked at for these murders, I probably would buy it. [12:37] You know, because he did look very emotional. But given that he's on trial for a double murder, what were people's thoughts about his these tears and his nose and all of it? I just think they didn't believe it. OK. [12:52] But during the trial, I think Haley and I observed that, you know, he— [12:58] sometimes would rock back and forth. He would sometimes, I mean, I think he had... [13:05] I think the blow-your-nose thing, frankly, was something we had seen during the trial. I sent you ladies a... [13:15] the screen grab as I was watching it this weekend because I kept seeing you in the gallery. And of course, that led, Carol, to our text conversation about those horrible benches in courthouses across America, and they are the most painful thing to sit on for hours on end. If we're headed for another six weeks trial, chiropractically, I'm not sure I can survive. Well, why don't, I mean, I've seen

[13:45] will bring in like, you know, almost like the little baseball pads they bring to baseball games or they give out at baseball games? I have a stadium seat. She has all of it. Oh, so you have that. I have tools. I bring my tools and I share. Yeah, absolutely. It's awful. Haley and I, though, have learned the hard way through this trial is you can stay home and watch it on a live feed. Yeah, live stream. [14:15] so much more about what's going on if you're there, and there's no substitute for being there. When we come back, we'll have an extra clip from Craig's interview with Murdoch's attorneys. [14:36] Prime Day is June 23rd through the 26th? These deals are so appealing. Like portable steamers for steaming. Whoa, did I just sing soprano? I think I'm breaking into song. Epic deals on air fryers, vacuums, and skincare. I can't stop singing. Shop Epic deals this Prime Day, June 23rd through the 26th. Ooh, I think that's it. Nope, there's more. Luggage, smart glasses. [15:06] . [15:06] Hey, Ontario, come on down to BetMGM Casino and see what our newest exclusive, The Price is Right Fortune Pick, has to offer. Don't miss out. Play exciting casino games based on the iconic game show only at BetMGM. Check out how we've reimagined three of the show's iconic games like Plinko, Cliffhanger and the Big Wheel into fun casino game features. Don't forget to download the BetMGM Casino app for exclusive access and excitement on The Price is Right Fortune Pick.

[15:36] fortune pick only available at betmgm casino betmgm and game sense remind you to play responsibly 19 plus to wager ontario only please play responsibly if you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you please contact connects ontario at [redacted phone] to speak to an advisor free of charge betmgm operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming ontario [16:02] What is generosity? Is it smiling at a stranger? Is it helping a neighbor move? Is generosity sharing your good fortunes? There is power in generosity, not just for those who give, but for those who receive it and witness it too. Every act of generosity, big or small, creates a ripple effect. And as Canadians, generosity is in our DNA. It's in the people we love and the places we call home. Visit CanadaHelps.org for more ways to be generous. [16:33] I want to know, you two live and breathe this case so much, and Craig, take us to that moment where you find out— [16:45] that [16:45] Alec is getting a new trial. Where were you? Do you just immediately call each other? How does this all come about? Another one of our colleagues started calling me again and again. And I was on one of our associate producers on this case who are our... [17:02] legs of the operation. And I thought, that's strange. They continue calling me. Oh, give them a shout out. Who is it? Oh, it's Javi. Oh, Javi. Oh, we love Javi. Javi is calling me and...

[17:14] I was on another work call and I see that he's calling my personal phone. Yeah. In my head, I thought, [17:21] He's got a new trial. Murdoch, yeah. And I called Carol right away and I said, and Carol answered like she, you know, Carol and I are very close. [17:29] In real life. Yes. In real life. And she said, Hey. And I said, Carol, she said, what? He said, I'm sorry. [17:40] Alec got a new trial, and I don't think I should repeat here what she said. [17:46] Can you give us the mild version? Oh, no. Okay. Oh, boy. Well, and we just know what's coming. You know what's coming. And that's the big part of this, right, is that it was such a long trial, so many witnesses to do all the pretrial hearings. I mean, to do all of this all over again is just daunting. [18:10] here because we're in the middle of an election in South Carolina. The attorney general. He's running for governor. He's running for governor. And we have... [18:23] A wholly new person that's not really on the radar of what we know about the Murdoch case, who's, well, several people running for the AG's job. And that's why in our interview last week with the Attorney General, Alan Wilson, he says he would, you know, is doing all he can to make this case be retried before he leaves office in January. And maybe, Carol, as death penalty this time, as they're saying.

[18:53] Death penalty, he said, is on the table. Now it's good news on Friday, yeah. What was so wild for me was watching the episode when you go back in time, because now you know what you know. And Becky obviously, you know, made some major mistakes here, the court clerk. You go back and you hear Alan giving this press conference. I call her Becky Booth. That's her nickname. But Madam Clerk, wherever you are tonight. I hear you. [19:23] I want to be careful here because the defense lawyers were talking about this last week. [19:29] Mm-hmm. [19:31] There was a very... [19:32] There was a very rare camaraderie that the media had at this trial because it was six full weeks and we sat in the same seats together. And I will say that... [19:46] - At the time, [19:48] Becky, it's not unusual for us, and you know this well, Andrea, that a clerk of court is a very integral part of the report. Absolutely. Absolutely. They are providing us hearing times. They are helping us understand what's going to go in the courtroom. We get exhibits from them. And there have been so many allegations, and Becky has ultimately pleaded guilty, but I think before we point any fingers, [20:18] kind of getting through this trial in the best way that we knew how, which was to do our jobs and work with the clerk in a professional way. Well, and to be fair, she was a first-term clerk of court. And this was, by any measure, would be a lifetime huge trial. And Haley and I met with her

[20:48] We need to know what do you want us to do about parking? We want to know how are you, just the logistics of covering a trial. And I think while we were living it, you know, [21:00] She did a very good job of wrangling a lot of things. She seemed really personable, too. She seemed like... [21:07] The right person to be handling a trial like that? It seemed organized and... [21:12] Yeah, I was reading because actually we found out this morning, Andrea, that Alec Murdoch is now suing. [21:19] Becky herself. In civil court. In civil court today. He's kind of, you know, demanding that some of his attorney's fees be paid due to the suffering that he's, you know, [21:32] been under because of everything that has happened. But in the complaint, it states how Becky's election was in 2020, and this crime happened in 2021. And we went to trial very quickly. And I just thought, wow. [21:45] imagine this being, you know, [21:48] one of the first trials that you ever do as a clerk. And I've been at Dateline a long time. Carol's been at Dateline a little bit longer, I would say, even for us. [21:58] The media attention on this case has been unprecedented. Yeah, it really has. I mean, and what did the justices say? The South Carolina justices, something about stardom with Becky? Yeah. [22:09] It was Justice Jean Toll who said that she was called by the scion of celebrity. And the justices ultimately agreed. The defense team, Alec's defense team, has really hit the ground running with this. And we have an extra clip from Craig's interview with the defense team that we can take a listen to.

[22:32] All 12 jurors are called in to testify. They're asked if they were in fact coerced. They're asked if they felt [22:42] pressured. [22:43] influence to vote guilty. What did they say? [22:47] Most of them said no. [22:49] Um, [22:50] Only takes one, though. [22:52] I mean, the Supreme Court case is directly on point. If she attempted to influence one juror, [22:58] That's enough because you're entitled under the Sixth Amendment to a fair trial, not a pretty fair trial, a fair trial, 12 jurors who are not being... [23:08] influenced by extraneous influences. - And one juror said that [23:13] it did influence her. But what's important is [23:16] our Supreme Court followed the law that says you don't get to ask jurors, you know, what [23:24] went into the mix to make up your mind? That's an unanswerable question after the fact. And so one of the things that the opinion does is says, you don't go there. What you have to do is you have to look at the conduct, the comments, the context in which they were made, and would that [23:42] effect. [23:44] You know, a reasonable juror, not how it affected those individual jurors. A hypothetical reasonable juror. You know, that is a really interesting quote because ultimately the Supreme Court decided, you know, even though you had 11 people say I was not influenced, how can you unhear that? For the ones that—all of them did not hear Becky say any of those things. But for the ones that did, even though they said it didn't influence me, I think the feeling is—

[24:13] Should you be forced to unhear that? No. How would you know? Well, yeah, I mean, what I said to you guys that day when the decision came out, I said, Becky is having a very bad day. [24:25] You know, this is her worst nightmare that this happened. Well, and I think this trial was so long and so arduous and so painful for so many people that even if you're glad that the Supreme Court has remedied a problem they see with what Becky did, the prospect of doing it again, even if you think that's the fair thing, is still exhausting. It's exhausting. [24:55] We should say that we have attempted to contact Becky as well as her lawyers in this case, and we have not received anything back. [25:06] You two have a lot of work ahead of you. I will say that area is beautiful. It is. I saw that the... [25:15] I saw the picture of the Buford Hospital after the boat crash, and I went there for a change of command at the base there. [25:28] just the most stunning area. [25:31] So I think that's why Pat Conroy wrote The Prince of Tides and said it right there. That was there? Yeah. Yeah. [25:41] Oh, I love that book and I love that movie, Nick Nolte. I think it's so...

[25:46] It's fortuitous, too, Andrea, actually, that you brought that up. And I was talking to a few people over the weekend that were close with the family and close to the situation. And we should just bring up that, you know, Mallory Beach's death in 2019. The other victims in this case, you know. [26:06] There's just Maggie's family and the Murdoch family and there's just so much pain. So much pain. But it all goes back to that night in – [26:16] 2019 and their original lawsuit and, you know, Mallory's death. So, [26:22] You just brought up Paris Island and they were out there on the boat and how beautiful it is. [26:28] She was really a beautiful person and [26:31] you know, [26:32] It kind of all goes back to that. She was just, yeah, I mean, she was gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous, Mallory. And you just look at her and you're like, this is a girl who had her whole life ahead of her. [26:43] Yeah. [26:44] On that note, we are going to take a break and come back with questions from our viewers, our listeners, social media questions. Are you guys up for that? We sure are. Wonderful. [27:02] Prime Day is June 23rd through the 26th? These deals are so appealing. Like portable steamers for steaming. Whoa, did I just sing soprano? I think I'm breaking into song. Epic deals on air fryers, vacuums, and skincare.

[27:21] I can't stop singing. Shop Epic deals this Prime Day, June 23rd through the 26th. Ooh, I think that's it. Nope, there's more. Luggage, smart glasses. [27:32] Hey, Ontario, come on down to BetMGM Casino and see what our newest exclusive, The Price is Right Fortune Pick, has to offer. Don't miss out. Play exciting casino games based on the iconic game show only at BetMGM. Check out how we've reimagined three of the show's iconic games like Plinko, Cliffhanger and the Big Wheel into fun casino game features. Don't forget to download the BetMGM Casino app for exclusive access and excitement on The Price is Right Fortune Pick. [28:02] Right Fortune Pick, only available at BetMGM Casino. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager, Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connects Ontario at [redacted phone] to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. [28:28] What is generosity? Is it smiling at a stranger? Is it helping a neighbor move? Is generosity sharing your good fortunes? There is power in generosity, not just for those who give, but for those who receive it and witness it too. Every act of generosity, big or small, creates a ripple effect. And as Canadians, generosity is in our DNA. It's in the people we love and the places we call home. Visit CanadaHelps.org for more ways to be generous.

[29:04] Welcome back. And now we have some very curious viewers and listeners who have some observations and comments that they would like to ask you guys about. So we will start with Bambi Workman. She is from Facebook. And she says, I'm watching Dateline NBC. What a crazy turnaround. I was thinking that too. [29:30] and new interviews. [29:31] And with Craig's schedule on the Today Show. We should really give all kudos where kudos are due, which is to Craig because he, to your point, wakes up it. [29:41] 3.[redacted address] manages to keep all of this stuff in his head and he's from south carolina so he knows these people it's very personal to him but um [29:52] It was a very tight turnaround. Haley's so right about Craig, even with... [29:57] His regular day job, he was still a very important reporter on our story Friday night. He was making calls. He was checking facts. You know, he just didn't stop. Yeah, because we had all of you on Dateline True Crime Weekly, and Craig was working the phones, as were you guys, and he really knows the story inside and out, just like you do. [30:27] to, I wonder. [30:28] Oh, wow. That's a good question. [30:31] There was not a lot of case law present in South Carolina. There's another case cited in the,

[30:38] In the order, that was about a bailiff who had made some comments to a jury, but dating back years and years. And even some of the lawyers that we've spoken to and our expert lawyer at NBC, Laura Jarrett, said this is truly amazing. [30:54] unprecedented to see this kind of conviction overturned. Feels that way. Yeah. Anecdotally, anyway, it feels that way. Yeah. Um, [31:05] Donna Perry on Facebook, Craig Melvin is going to solve this. Well, some people don't think it needs solving. I guess some people maybe do. [31:14] If Craig can find those missing guns, that'd be a big step forward. And then we have a missing, what, Haley, $6 million still not accounted for that was part of what money stolen from clients. So... [31:32] This question is on to something with Craig because they're, [31:36] or two things that he has never forgotten. Where is the money and where are the guns? [31:40] Well, you know, some people are really good at hiding money, right? With offshore accounts. I'm not saying that's the case here, but there are ways to hide money if you're savvy enough. And if you believe the prosecution, you know, did Alec have enough time to, you know, hide those... [32:01] weapons, right? When you look at the area around Moselle, you are right near the Saquahatchee River. So you have that. You've got miles and miles and miles of marshes and woods. There are just no shortage of places to put guns. Yeah. Jennifer Blair Martin says, after the first trial and the millions of shows about it, how will they find

[32:28] any jurors for number two? I guess jurors who don't have preconceived. We ask that repeatedly to everyone that's key in this case last week. I mean, my first instinct was you'd have to go to Zanzibar to find a jury of people that didn't know about it. But, you know, I think we asked Alan Wilson that very question. He said, look, we have got a structure, as every [32:58] that can understand a case and can set aside [33:03] you know, their previous... [33:06] convictions. And the other issue with a new trial and change of venue, which is the other issue people ask about, is it. [33:15] To get a change of venue, you not only have to get approval, but you've also got to find a county whose demographics line up to be very similar from Collison County. That's true. And so you can't just say, we're going to move it to the upstate because you've got to have a county that matches demographically. So I don't – it would not surprise me if change of venue doesn't really come up. [33:41] Linda LeBlanc on Facebook asks, did they say an approximate? [33:47] trial date? I've just heard so far that they want to do this quickly, but have we heard anything beyond that? No. So what we know next, at least what the defense has told us, is that they will have to appoint a judge because the trial judge, Judge Newman, from the first trial recused himself, and there will have to be a new judge. And then there will likely be a hearing that there's just going to be a lot of factors, not to mention if the death penalty comes into play. That puts this

[34:17] And then you have to seat a death penalty jury, which is even more difficult than seating a jury that doesn't know about this case potentially. So. Yeah. So Haley and Carol, thank you so much for joining us today. And thank you. [34:33] You guys are just so up on this case, both of you and Craig. [34:38] You're the experts. So thank you for doing this. Thank you, Andrea, for having us. Thanks for having us. That is Talking Dateline for this week. Thank you all for listening. And remember, if you have any questions about our stories, you can DM us your audio or video on our socials at Dateline NBC or leave us a voicemail at [redacted phone] for a chance to be featured right [35:08] to the NBC News app. We'll see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC. [35:13] *music* [35:14] you [35:16] Prime Day is June 23rd through the 26th? These deals are so appealing. Like portable steamers for steaming. Whoa, did I just sing soprano? I think I'm breaking into song. Epic deals on air fryers, vacuums, and skincare. [35:36] I can't stop singing. Shop Epic Deals this Prime Day, June 23rd through the 26th. Ooh, I think that's it. Nope, there's more. Luggage, smart glasses. [35:46] you