#2508 - Joe Eszterhas

[00:00] the joe rogan experience train by day joe rogan podcast by night all day okay let's rock them all you need the headphones i'm never no okay [00:17] If it's okay with you. I know I've seen it both ways. No, you don't have to wear them. You were telling me about your cane. That cane is amazing. It's amazing. It's carved by the Dogan people who were in Mali. [00:35] It's a family that's been doing it for a hundred years, and many of them were killed in the Rwandan wars. [00:43] It's beautifully done, I think. [00:47] a close companion of mine for many years. It seems to be indestructible. It's pretty awesome looking. It looks heavy. The Dogon people have a very strange origin story. [00:59] It's a fascinating origin story that involves... [01:02] Is it... [01:07] It involves like here it is. That's I don't want to misspeak. So here it is. [01:15] Centers on the Supreme Creator Alma and the cosmic journey of the amphibious water spirits known as the Noma. [01:23] So they have this crazy cosmic origin story that's a part of their mythology.

[01:31] Ama then attempted to procreate with the Earth, but the pairing was flawed. It's like a very strange descendant of the Ark. According to the Dogon traditions, the Noma descended to Earth from the Sirius star system in a giant Ark-like vessel. The vessel contained the eight original human ancestors, along with the seeds and animals needed to populate the world. [01:52] Those are the dogma people. It's amazing. Amazing. I didn't know that. It's amazing. It's a crazy story. I have a daughter who is a nature photographer. I mean, does a lot of work in Africa. And she knows all about that stuff. So you were telling me before we got rolling, I said, save this for the air, that Vladimir Zelensky and his wife have seen Basic Instinct how many times? Fifteen, at least fifteen. [02:22] when they were courting and that they had known each other before. And one day she saw him with this tape in his hand. She said, what is it? And he said, basic instinct. And then they saw it together, and it had such an effect on them that they played it together many times, at least 15 times, on their anniversaries. Now, I'm not sure what that says. [02:52] kind of amatory effect on them. But the other thing that's interesting to me is if you see it 15 times, does it really fuck you up to the point where you go to war with Putin? I mean, is that the real key to why it happened? Well, in his defense, Putin attacked first. Absolutely. And I like Zelensky very much as a figure, and I'm very sympathetic to the Ukrainians because I've got a Hungarian background.

[03:22] devastated Hungary in a similar freedom fight. So maybe it gave him the balls and the wisdom to go after Putin. Maybe it just made him horny. Who knows? Might have nothing to do with the war. Might not. You made some crazy fucking movies, man. You really did. Well, there are 18 of them that have been made, and there have been like 34 strips. So there are 16 that haven't been made. And I don't know. [03:52] inside me who lives in some spot that I'm not sure where it exactly is, but he's 29, born 29, he will die 29, and with anything that has a relatively strong sexual content, he wrote the fucking thing. I'm just an old guy giving him the space. So when the recent deal was made for a record amount of money for Basic Instinct 3, because there was a sequel to it, that was a [04:19] I'd tell a piece of shit and I had nothing to do with it. But this would be three, and my title for it is Basic Insane Jezebel. The Twisted Little Man put together this story that I think people will have fun with, but it continues in that same vein, and it seems to be his specialty. So let's see what happens. I like how you refer to yourself as like another person. Yeah. The Twisted Man. [04:49] little kids where they have a companion, an invisible companion. The Twisted Little Man is my main one. I have others. Mark Twain is one. And interestingly, Jesus of Nazareth is another. And these people are very, very close to me. Twisted Little Man is a darker presence than the others, although Twain is a cross between the two of them, and I absolutely love him. So when you were writing things like Basic Instinct, do you really feel like you were

[05:19] like another person? Is that what it felt like? It felt, well, let me go to the backdrop. [05:25] I wrote it in 13 days. [05:28] And I felt like it just poured out at me. There is a background to it, and that is the Catherine Tramiel character and then the Nick Curran character. Many, many years before, in college, I had an affair with a [05:49] I was an 18-year-old kid, and I had an affair with a faculty member's wife. It was a serious affair, and we... [05:59] She was sophisticated, smart, beautiful, sassy, exactly the kind of woman I've always fallen for. And she had a profound effect on me. Now, at the end of the year, she moved on, and I discovered that there was a different student that she was with each year and that her husband looked the other way. [06:27] How old was she? [06:29] 39. I was 18. I was a very green 18 because I grew up an ethnic immigrant kid. I fell in love easily. But falling in love easily also meant a lot in terms of learning things because I was an immigrant and I really didn't know this country and I was shy.

[06:59] men that I was together with, beginning in college and through the rest of my life, then I preferred the company of women always because they weren't [07:09] armored off in male macho. But anyway, she was stuck there in my memory. And then when I was a police reporter, almost a decade and a half later, a decade later, at the plane dealer, I had a buddy who was a cop that I liked very much who had been involved in three or four shootings. And when we got to know each other and we spent time drinking together and we did a lot of that, [07:39] the shootings. Was it an itchy trigger finger or did he just get off on it? So somehow these two characters were in my head and then I thought about them a lot, but they didn't come together. And then I think thanks to the twisted little man, one day the two came together in a love story. And that was the genesis of Basic Instinct. And by the time I wrote it, I thought about it [08:09] for a long time. I would wake up in the middle of the night and jot notes down, which happens to me sometimes when I'm very involved in a script. And I wrote it in Hawaii. I went off to Hawaii by myself. I let the sun beat me up. I snorted some Coke, which was an habit in those days. And after 13 days of all of that, the other thing I did was listen to the Stones all the time. I loved the Stones. I loved the blues from the time I was an immigrant.

[08:39] kit, and the stones just blew everything else out during that period of time for me. So I listened to that at the end of 13 Days. I had this script, and I went back home to Marin, typed it up, almost sent it to my agent with the title Love Hurts, and I was going out the door. The Twisted Little Man had another thought, and I raced back inside and wrote towards Basic Instinct, sent it to my agents. They auctioned it. [09:09] who became my big brother and one of the people I really loved in life. Everybody bid on it. It wound up selling for a record $3 million, and then it became a towering hit. To this day, it trend. [09:29] The critics at the beginning were critical, mildly critical. No, actually, the critics were really after the movie. [09:39] Through the years, the critics have had a change of mind. Isn't that funny? Yeah. There's a woman named Camille Baglia, who was a main feminist critic, who went up against the movie very strongly recently, not recently, but in the past five or ten years, has come around and said that the movie is the example. It's a post-feminist classic, she says, and it's about women who don't have to hide their sexuality.

[10:09] a turnaround. [10:10] This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience is brought to you by Paramount+. UFC history is going down at the White House. It's the world's greatest fights on America's biggest stage. Watch UFC Freedom 250 at the White House live today only on Paramount+. [10:30] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? [11:00] eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human grade food. The farmer's dog makes fresh food for dogs and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier. And isn't getting more time with our four-legged best friends something every dog [11:30] That is yes, obviously. So try the Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food.

[11:39] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. [11:47] This episode is brought to you by Ketone IQ. I don't care who you are, performance is mental. I talk for a living, so I'm always looking for a way to stay sharp. Ketone IQ is one of the few things that actually feels like a game changer. It came out of a $6 million U.S. military research program on human performance. It's a small shot of ketones, fuel your body makes when fasting or training, and your brain loves it. [12:17] steady focus, no spikes or crashes, and it's clean. No sugar, no carbs, no preservatives. Go to ketone.com slash rogan for 30% off your subscription order. Or find Ketone IQ at Target stores nationwide in the protein and electrolyte aisle and get your first shot free. They're so confident in it, they'll even offer a 60-day money-back guarantee. Go ahead and take your shot. [12:47] Yeah. Yeah. I wonder, did you ever have a conversation with her? No, I've never met her. She teaches somewhere on the East Coast and then she has a towering reputation, but I never met her. I usually don't listen to critics. It's through the 18 films and, you know, I don't listen to critics. I worked with a director, Richard Marquand, who directed Jack at Edge and the Heart's.

[13:11] Excuse me, in Hearts of Fire, and we worked on another one together. And Richard said to me that critics should be taken out into the backyard and shot. I worked with another director, Mike Figgis, on the one-night stand, who said that critics should be taken out of the backyard and headbutted to death. [13:31] I was sympathetic to both things. It's so wild that your views were formed by this relationship that you have when you were 18, [13:41] with an older, horny, smart lady who's kind of wild, and then a cop who might have been a shady cop. Yes, and how the two came together in this twisted thing called creativity. And they come out of this maelstrom. Now, the other thing I'm sure was an influence is by the time... [14:04] I did that. I'd been through four years of police feet experience covering cops, two in Dayton, Ohio, and two in Cleveland. [14:13] And that consisted of, at that point, [14:18] driving around in a company car that got the police radio and responding to whatever was going on. [14:28] You got there before the cops got there. And then the one that really stuck in my head and got inside me was, there was one with the report of a shooting. [14:40] suburb in Dayton and I got there. There were no cops there. The front door was wide open. I walked in. I passed the body of a guy who

[14:55] He shot himself and there was blood all over the wall. And then a woman was his wife that he shot. And I heard someone in the back of the house screaming and crying. And I went back there. And the thing that really got to me was she was screaming and crying in Hungary. [15:17] And it was an old lady who was the mother's mom. And, of course, I spoke fluent in Hungary. [15:26] And there was something about the scene that's with me to this day. The other police beat experience I had, Joe, that was very moving, was I covered the Glenville urban uprising in Cleveland. It was a big one, and there were, I think, six or seven policemen shot and killed. [15:55] About 10 feet in front of me was a cop bleeding, badly bleeding, moaning. [16:02] And at the same time, there were gunshots coming from this apartment house. And I heard that the gunshots were coming from a group of so-called black nationalists led by a man. [16:18] And Fred Ahmed Evans. I knew both men from the police beat. The cop was Hungarian. His name was Elmer Joseph. And he would come around to the little office in the police beat all the time, and I knew him. And the black man was named Fred Ahmed Evans. And he would come by in his dashiki sometimes at 2 in the morning because I worked the overnight shift sometimes. And we had the greatest talks.

[16:48] a lot of beer, smoked a lot of dope, and got to be pals. And he was leading the group of black nationalists who were shooting these policemen. And I was behind this car's wheels a few feet away from the whole shit. Whoa. And I found the whole thing so frightening and so disturbing that I pissed my pants. Jesus Christ. So the four years of police, there were other incidents I covered. [17:18] things in Detroit, two in Cleveland, and one in Newark. He was very involved in the civil rights movement. [17:27] And, you know, that's what I did. I covered whatever was breaking and much of it was dark stuff. So by the time that hookup happened between Catherine Trammell and Nick Curran, there was a lot that went into it. [17:44] Yeah, I could imagine. The insane life experience to be able to see all those different... [17:51] Crime scenes and witness all that. You know, what happened was that I happened to pick a field. [18:01] Journalism, I thought, and so did Hunter. One of the things, we became friends. We were both poor kids, and we both dreamed of being novelists. Novelists. You mean Hunter Thompson? Yeah, Hunter Thompson. And the way that we chose to begin that was by doing journalism.

[18:21] because no one made a living writing novels, and we both had to make a living. So Hunter wrote stuff for the National Enquirer and then moved on to Rolling Stone and all of that. And I did it on a local level. And that put us into a culture that was exploding. The American society was exploding. The black situation vis-a-vis white racism was horrendous. [18:51] So there was a dynamic in the country that we were on top of because of what we did. So I saw a lot. I saw a lot in the refugee camps because I began my seven years in refugee camps in Austria and then grew up dirt poor in an urban city. [19:13] And I saw a lot of stuff there as well that was dark and moving and profoundly. [19:21] effective. [19:23] This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew. Listen up. Blue Chew just dropped something wild. They're calling it Blue Chew Gold. And honestly, the name fits. The stuff is setting a whole new standard for performance in the bedroom. It's not your typical blue pill. It combines two ingredients for blood flow with two for mental arousal and connection. It's not just physical,

[19:53] It's not just about being able to perform. It's about actually wanting to. And I've got a special deal for you listeners. Right now, when you buy two months of Blue Chew Gold, you get the third free with the promo code ROGAN. You'll also receive an additional 10% off plus free overnight shipping on your first order. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information. Well, also, so when you're writing, you're writing from real-world experience. Yeah. [20:23] which is so much more effective and makes sense why your stuff was so dark and wild. [20:28] It doesn't make sense. [20:32] And, you know, I mean, when I was a kid in Cleveland growing up, we lived in a very poor part of town near Westside. And there was a bar next door. [20:45] And I slept on a couch in the living room that overlooked the bar. [20:58] with neon lights and Puerto Rican hookers and all of that stuff. They really interested a little kid who spent most of his time playing with, as Mark Twain said, with his pecker. So this was all very exciting stuff. And I was watching one day and I saw this man on his stab, another one to death and fall down and bleed to death. How old were you?

[21:25] 12. Oh, Jesus. [21:28] Um, yeah. So, um... [21:31] And there are reasons why. The other thing with my scripts is almost everything in my scripts somehow comes from some kind of personal tie. You know, Big Shots, which was a little movie that was very popular with kids, came from my son Steve's experience in Marin County with a black friend, and how they tried to make that friendship work. And that's what the movie is. It's a little movie about two kids, a white kid and a black kid. [22:01] and try to become friends. [22:06] There was a movie I did called Checking Out with Jeff Daniels, and that was about midlife crisis. And suddenly now in my early to mid-30s, I was scared shitless that I was going to die. And here I am at fucking 81 talking about dying at the 30-something. [22:26] So there was a comedic thing that came out of that. [22:31] where it did, but there was almost with everyone, there was some kind of betrayed, came out of the notion that at that particular point, if you remember, there was all this right-wing craziness where there were militias that were shooting people, and there were jamborees where the right-wingers got together. When was this? Betrayed, which came out in the mid-'80s. There were several incidents in Oregon and in northwest parts of the country,

[23:01] which got a lot of publicity. It was before Timothy McVeigh, but roughly in that same period. So I decided under a false name to go to one of these jamborees and see what the hell was going on. Essentially, my journalism experience, I went into it, and then out of it I concocted this romance between Deborah Winger and Tom Berenger. But they all had some kind of a tie. [23:31] and fro. [23:32] It's semi-autobiographical in terms of the issues I had as a high school kid with bullying and all of those kinds of things and becoming an American citizen. They were shot, incidentally, right where I grew up, in front of the apartment house where we lived. [24:02] was watching the shooting and saying, did you know Joe when he grew up here? And he said, yeah, I was a bartender there. And he said, shit, Joe is just a fucking refugee trying to make his way in the world. [24:20] He nailed it. I mean, that's really what, not a complicated thing, but that's really what happened. [24:25] And the only other things, nice things have been said about me through the years, but the only other thing that I really treasure and absolutely love is I interviewed O. Threading.

[24:38] The night before he was killed in a plane crash in Cleveland. And we began speaking around midnight after a show at a place called Leo's Casino. And we were talking about a show at a place called Leo's Casino. [24:48] And we began talking around midnight and talked until 3.30 in the morning. [24:56] And the... [24:58] We did a lot of beer. We did a lot of Jim Beam. We smoked a lot of really powerful Thai stuff and had a great time. And at the end of it, he had to go. [25:11] He said, give me a fucking hug. And I gave him a hug. And he said, you know what you are? He said, you're a fucking white nigger. That's what you are. I love that. Stayed with me all this time. The New York Times said he's a force of nature. [25:28] I spoke all that as bullshit. What Otis said and what the old man said I thought was really great. Well, here in the afternoon, Otis Redding was such a legend. Oh, he was great. He died so young, too. How old was he? He died. I was in his 30s someplace. Listen to this. I interviewed him. I went home the next day at the plane dealer. It was Sunday and I was working. [25:48] I'm literally the day after the interview. And so I'm sitting there in this hall-like city room, and I see a city editor. The Associated Press wire machines start dinging. And in those days, if it had more than like four or five dings, there was some bad thing that happened. So I saw a city editor come from the city desk to this dinging machine. And he's staring at it. The fucking thing is still dinging.

[26:18] And then he looks at me like that in the city room. And then he looks away. [26:23] So I saw that and I got up and went to the digging machine and Otis and his plane had crashed the way to another gig. And I was probably the last man who really spoke to him at length. [26:44] I left the office right then and said, fuck it, for the rest of the day. There was a bar across the street. I drank myself silly and went home with the waitress. It was just horrible. But I saw a lot, to get back to your point, Joe. I did it in different ways. [27:03] And, incidentally, I tried to write a movie about Otis called Blaze of Glory. [27:07] and we put it together. A man named John Aptad was going to direct it and it was announced that Cuba Gooding was going to play Otis. And the whole thing fell apart at the last minute for financing reasons and to this day it's never gotten made. But I'm a writer. What else can I do with someone that I love in a meeting except write about them in that way, right? [27:37] way you do. [27:39] has to have had some interesting life experiences. You don't get those kind of scripts that you wrote from a sterile environment. I agree with that. Sometimes, after my conversion to Christianity later in my life, I wrote three Christian scripts, and none of them were made.

[28:09] It wasn't made because one of the priests involved with potentially getting Christian financing. [28:17] I said, we need more incense. And my response to somebody who interviewed me about it was, I don't write fucking incense. I write flesh and blood. [28:29] So no wonder it wasn't made. What did he mean by you need more incense? Well, to make it more hymn-like, to give it a sense of piety, [28:42] to make it inspire the people so that they become Catholic in this specific case, and that it was too secular. [28:59] views between so-called Christian films and secular films. And so that's why we never got to finance for all three of them. When you say you fell between Christian films and secular films, you mean in the way you were writing it, that you weren't writing it specifically as a Christian film or specifically as a secular film? The way I was writing it naturally. Right. Like you wrote everything else. [29:29] considerations. I was just writing it from my heart and that was too gritty to get Christian kind of financing and on the other hand too religious to get the secular financing. That's too bad because that bridge is probably what would bring more people to Christianity where they could relate to it. I agree with you absolutely and my argument was

[29:50] You know, these could be hit movies because my movies in a lot of cases have been these could be hit movies. And that's more important than than than than spiking people with incense. It's interesting how Hollywood is always rejected those kind of religion film, religious films like The Passion of the Christ, for instance. That was a huge movie. Well, it's not just a huge movie. But in my mind, it was like a prayer. [30:20] I watch it each Good Friday, and it was a huge movie, beautifully done. [30:28] It wasn't officially endorsed by the Catholic Church, although I saw him. [30:35] I saw in Cleveland a meeting where a priest organized a preview screening of the movie, and they had like 700 people before watching it. There was such an interest in it. But part of the reason, I think, you raise a good point, because I think part of the reason it was such a towering hit was that it was real. It wasn't incense filled. It was real. [31:05] You had a figure who bled, and you really show what happened upon that cross and how awful that kind of pain is. The movie really reflected that. No, it was horrific. And there was also that Willem Dafoe film. What was that one called? The Last Temptation of Christ. That's right. Marty Scorsese. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. I love Willem Dafoe. I mean, he's one of my favorite actors, and I liked it.

[31:35] You know, the notion that Jesus of Nazareth was this Fred Rogers figure who wasn't really a real man, whereas the Bible says he was a true man and true God. [31:53] That film really showed his human side. [32:05] one of my close friends that I speak to on most days, is that he was a true man and true God. He was a Jewish zealot, a freedom fighter against the Roman Empire. He was crucified by the Romans. As a freedom fighter, [32:23] He hung around blue-collar guys and fishermen and hookers and tax collectors who were the lowest of the low back then, as they should be now, but they were the lowest of the low back then. And those were the people that he primarily buddied around with. That's Jesus of Nazareth, and that side is completely ignored by most films except the two that you mentioned specifically that are like that. [32:53] The last temptation of the Christ, I don't remember. I remember there was some controversy around it, but I don't. I was too young to really be paying attention to, like, how. It was the very fact that Jesus had a relationship that was clearly indicated as being sexual with Mary Magdalene, who was depicted as a prostitute.

[33:23] who had advised Roman builders in a city called Seraphim, and then was one of the people who financed Jesus as he swept through Galilee and the rest of Judea. [33:39] There's another scene in the Bible where an unnamed woman goes to Jesus and washes his feet, and then washes his feet with his hair. [33:53] this unnamed woman [33:56] By a pope in the 6th century, Gregory the Great. [33:59] was picked up in Mary Magdalene. No connection to Mary Magdalene. There's nothing that says that Mary Magdalene was a hooker of any kind. There's no proof for that in any way. So the fact that The Last Temptation of Christ did that and brought the two of them together in a sort of semi-love story without, of course, any real sexuality to it on film [34:29] criticized. Scorsese's house was picketed. And I think the studio at that point was run by Lou Wasserman, whom I knew from from Cleveland because he was a he was a he ran a racing wire in Cleveland before he went. But he was a legendary man. His house was was picketed as well. This episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter. When you're looking to hire, you consider someone's skills,

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[36:52] So was it just Catholic people and Christian people that were upset about this? Mostly, yeah. But it was very unusual for a Martin Scorsese film to... [37:09] to be a religious film too. Absolutely. Like a depiction of Jesus. People were much more averse back then. I feel like sometimes religion goes in peaks and waves. And I think there was a wave of atheism back then, and Hollywood was very non-Christian, to put it mildly. Yes. The Christian themes in films were never promoted. [37:31] Yeah, it was absolutely right. It's not as bad now in that sense as it was in those days. And I think that part of it, what frustrates me is that, [37:45] is that there would be an openness to that and to Christian films if they were real, if they weren't full of incense and piety. Right. You know, what we've done to Jesus over the years is make him a kind of Fred Rogers figure. You know, he wasn't that. You know, I'm not even sure that Jesus really said do not resist violence. You know, Jesus also said if you have a cloak but not a sword, sell the cloak and buy a sword. [38:15] He also said, I come not to make peace. I come not to make peace, but with a sword. So the...

[38:26] There's been a lot of church stuff, and then especially I think Catholics are more guilty of this, to romanticize and sort of cosmeticize the figure of Jesus of Nazareth. Well, there's always a problem when human beings add their own interpretation to an ancient story. Absolutely. And do it to fit their own narrative. [38:56] evidence on the other side. And they simply ignore that and pretend it doesn't happen. [39:03] The Gnostic Gospels are full of so-called revolutionary things. And the truth is that the Gnostic Gospels were written 40 years, 30, 40 years after the death of Jesus, whereas the Gnostic Gospels, the ones that the churches have accepted, were written 80, 90 years after the death of Jesus. So they had to have been taken secondhand from people who said they saw things. [39:33] Not that people directly saw them. The people in the church gospels were named like Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We're not the people who are in the gospels as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Then nobody knows who write them. They took with those names. But they were not those people. Really? Yeah. [39:53] I had no idea. Absolutely. No doubt. Even the churches admit that at this point.

[40:00] Whew. [40:03] hard time for us to conceptualize to put her into our head and how much time has passed [40:09] Yes, sir. [40:09] To try to get an accurate... [40:13] of what was going on back then. [40:15] It's insanely difficult. I have become a, since my sort of conversion to Christianity, and I would style myself a devout Christian but not a devout Catholic, even though I go to Mass and I love the Mass and believe in it. But since 2001, when this process really began, I've become a real student of the historical Jesus. [40:45] And I learn more and more, and I'm more and more astounded at what's been done to cosmeticize this man who was Jesus of Nazareth. [40:57] Well, it's also he had some of the most profound and [41:02] and [41:02] insanely resonating [41:05] teachings, [41:06] Like even today, the words that he spoke 2,000 years ago. [41:12] There's still today people... [41:14] I mean, they resonate with people. And if you live your life by the teachings of Jesus Christ, you will be a better person. Yes, you will. It is a great framework to live your life. [41:26] which is incredible when you think about a person that lived so long ago. [41:30] He is a much better person to pick as your imagined companion than Mark Twain.

[41:40] Your imagined companion. Let me ask you this, because I had a long conversation with Mel Gibson about this. What do you think about the Shroud of Turin? Well, there was a study done, a major study that was done by the Catholic Church, led by John Paul II, [42:00] admired and read a lot about through the years. This is a scientific study that discovered that the Shroud of Turin came from 1313 or 1320. [42:17] Now, this is a huge controversy about it, and there are those people who [42:22] who feel that that absolutely is Christ. And I must say that when I look at it, when I look at that figure, and I've done that a lot, and in my house we have several blow-ups of Turin's Christ, it's very, very moving. [42:41] But the evidence, what there is, seems to indicate that it comes from the 1300s. Yeah, I've seen that as well. [42:52] that evidence [42:54] There's some controversy about that evidence. Yeah, there is. And that some of the cloth, they believe, dates to far earlier, and it's the type of cloth and the way it's made seems to indicate that it's far older. Right. [43:07] I don't know how much of the cloth they've carbon tested.

[43:12] That is also an issue, and whether or not it had been repaired or whether or not there had been additional pieces. [43:19] I don't either. But you know what? Ultimately, when I look at that, when I look at that Jesus, and I've done that quite a bit, that face really moves me. So in a sense, I don't give a shit. At the very least, it's an insanely compelling piece of artwork. Absolutely. At the very least. Absolutely. But there's also a lot of... [43:40] Very strange mysteries as to how that was created in the first place. Because it's not a die... [43:47] And they're not exactly sure what caused that image to appear. [43:52] or how if that is a piece of art, they don't know how that art was created. And the fact that they really only could see the accurate representation of it once they saw it as a negative... [44:03] is also very interesting because who's going to make a piece of art where you can only really appreciate what it looks like when you see it as a negative? [44:10] Especially when you're talking about something that you're doing, you're making something in the 1300s. [44:15] Hundreds of years before photography is ever created. So what are you making and why is it so compelling when you look at it in the negative? And if you're talking about something that was created by an insane burst of energy, which is what the proponents of the Shroud of Turin being legitimate think, they think it was created by this insane burst of energy on Jesus' resurrection. [44:38] I'm agnostic on it. I have no idea whether it's real or not real, but I find it fascinating that they have no real explanation as to how it was created.

[44:49] the [44:51] I'm pretty much of a complete ignoramus on anything that has to do with science. You know, I've learned algebra and geometry and even biology, although I caught up with biology from personal experience. But I just don't know. It doesn't matter to me ultimately because I'm moved when I look at that, when I pray before that image and I look at it. [45:15] I moved. So as far as I'm concerned, for me, it's real. It may not be for other people. Well, like I said, at the very least, it's an insanely compelling piece of artwork. Absolutely. [45:29] The thing that I don't want to dismiss the possibility that it's real because I'm fascinated by just the mystery of how it was. Can you pull up an image of the. [45:39] the negative version of it. Yeah, I was trying to look up a bunch of stuff you guys are talking about, though, and there's [45:44] no [45:45] Answers for you. There's no answers in terms of why. I was looking for an accurate recreation someone's made, you know, in the last 200 years and doesn't seem to be one. No, no one has. [45:59] Yeah, when you look at the image, [46:01] and you realize that this is an actual negative thing. [46:04] of the original shroud. [46:07] You just you stop and think like, well, what was someone do if you if this is the negative? Like, how would you create that as a positive? Because it can you show me also the positive image of it?

[46:20] What it actually looks like? Okay. So here's... [46:23] This is one image. [46:24] So this is what it actually looks like. This is the actual shroud. [46:29] And when you look at that, you go, okay, I see shadows, it's very interesting. And then switch over to the negative. [46:36] And it all comes to life. [46:38] And... [46:39] there's... [46:40] Marks from the lashes, from the whip marks. There's blood stains from where the rods went through his wrists. [46:50] It's very fascinating. Yeah, it sure is. [46:53] And [46:53] Again, this is not dye. It's not ink. And they don't really know how it was made. [46:59] And again, no one has been able to recreate this. [47:04] That's it. [47:05] The cloth was made most likely from a loom that wasn't invented until like the 1300s. Okay. That doesn't necessarily mean... [47:14] That's work. [47:15] for sure came from though but [47:17] Right, right. But... Here's about the image. It's just like, how is the image transferred to the cloth, I asked. Does anybody have any idea? I've seen a video where someone gave some sort of scientific explanation, but... [47:30] I don't know if I can remember how to find it right now. [47:32] It says it behaves like a photographic negative and shows some 3D information, which is unusual for normal artwork. Okay. [47:39] The chemical theories that body heat, sweat, or vapors reacting with the cloth... [47:44] I example ammonia or lactic acid from sweat may have been proposed, but don't reproduce the shroud sharp, non blurry details. Simple heat or scorch theories likewise fail to match the very shallow, non burn discoloration of the fibers.

[48:02] human or mad made image human made image theories painting or rubbing from bass relief has been tested but studies have not found pigments in the amounts or patterns that would explain the image and there's no clear brush strokes [48:16] primitive photography some suggest that a medieval camera using light sensitive silver salts and lenses could have projected a body or statue onto the cloth and experimental replicas show that it's at least physically possible though historically speculative and now here's the weird one radiation bursts of energy theories [48:35] Some researchers... [48:36] argue that a brief intense burst of ultraviolet or similar radiation from the body could have discovered discolored only the top fibrils producing a non-contact image even where cloth and body didn't touch. Proponents sometimes link this to Jesus's resurrection, but the need the needed radiation billions of watts without burning the cloth is far beyond anything observed in nature. [49:03] and this remains a speculative, face-based idea rather than an established physical mechanism. In short, there's no consensus mechanism, the image transfer process is still unexplained, and every proposed method has serious problems when tested against the cloth's measured properties. [49:20] Wild. [49:21] I mean, there's no other piece of artwork that's that fascinating. [49:27] Because every other art, Michelangelo's work, you know, and all this incredible art...

[49:32] it's art you see what they did there's brushstrokes there's chisel marks they may you know they made incredible sculptures but it's clearly [49:40] man-made art. This is a different thing. It's a very strange thing. [49:46] If you can't recreate it today, if they could recreate it today, people would be doing it. They'd be making their versions of the Shroud of Tarn. Absolutely. [49:53] I don't know if that's been done historically, but when there is some nutbag that decided to do business over recreating this round of truth. Is there – did they carbon test it? And what are the arguments that it's older? [50:10] Because I do know that there have been some very recent arguments that the testing was incorrect and that it's older. [50:17] See if you can find out what that is. [50:20] whether or not [50:22] AI, whether perplexity, our sponsor has some sort of a bias. Yeah. [50:27] I think. [50:30] The thing is it's like pulling from all these – when you get an AI response to something, it's pulling from all these articles on the web. And most of the articles seem to indicate that people think it's at least – [50:40] either a hoax or an elaborate piece of artwork. The only carbon dating seems like it happened in 1988. [50:45] So I don't know that they've done it again. [50:55] and that other historical and scientific clues point to a much older cloth. Okay, what is the scientific arguments? Contaminated repair samples. Some research claim the 1988 test piece came from a rewoven or heavily handled corner, so its carbon date reflects medieval repairs, not the original cloth.

[51:14] Alternative dating methods, X-ray or crystallographic aging of linen fibers has produced dates compatible with the first century. Though these methods are newer and not widely accepted as definitive, [51:29] Pollen and dust. Analysis reports pollen grains and mineral dust consistent with the first century Middle East rather than only medieval Europe, which proponents say supports a much older origin. Image property. Some argue that the image's microscopic features and bursts of energy type characteristics require technology or phenomena unlikely in the Middle Ages, implying an earlier extraordinary event. [51:54] Thank you. [51:56] Well, why don't they do a retesting? [51:59] They probably don't want to know that it actually is from the 1300s. Yeah, I just don't think they want to know. [52:07] really believed in it. Yeah? He went to see it in Turin several times. He said he was moved by it, and that's when they launched this big Vatican investigation. And he never said in any way that he agreed with the investigation. He just seemed to drop the whole issue. And from what I know, he never went any further. But he visited it twice, went out of his way, [52:31] Where is it? It's in Turin still. It's currently in the Chapel of the Holy Shroud. [52:38] But so here's... [52:39] interesting was who found it and [52:41] when and why or whatever. The earliest undisputed record appears in the 19...

[52:46] the 1350s, rather, in Liry, a village in France, where the knight Geoffrey de Charnay displayed a cloth claimed to be Jesus' burial shroud. [52:56] How he obtained it and where it was between the 1st century and the 14th century are unknown, [53:01] Later theories trace it speculatively through Edessa and Constantinople. [53:09] I see you in St. Louis. [53:10] I can't never say that. Constantinople. But these links are debated. [53:15] Interesting. [53:16] What does it look like? How is it displayed? [53:18] in fact. [53:19] That's how it's displayed. Constantinople was named after Constantine, who was the first Roman emperor who made Roman Catholicism the national religion. Right. Yeah. [53:33] Wow. [53:34] so you can go check it out. [53:36] And how big is it? [53:38] Boy, they got that sucker walled off, huh? [53:41] From my impression, Joe, this was over the length of Jesus' body. Right. So it's longer than certainly I expected. Well, you can see it's both sides. So it apparently is folded over. [53:56] I wonder what all those markings are, those small triangle markings. [54:00] What is all that? Like these things? Yeah. [54:03] One other thing. [54:05] picture was pointing those out. It might be the burn marks that it was saying, that there's burn marks on it. [54:12] Again, it's 2,000 years old in theory.

[54:16] Just imagine if it's real. That's the thing. It's like I never want to dismiss the possibility that it's real because imagine if it is real. [54:22] That is crazy. I agree with you. In my mind, it's real and I pray to it. I try not to worry about whether it's real or not. I know that I'm moved. [54:33] And that's good enough for me. What led to your conversion to Christianity? I mean, from a guy making these wild, insane movies. Jamie, can I ask you for some water? There's water right here. Oh, great. Thank you. [54:53] This episode is brought to you by Chime. Chime is bringing something fresh to banking. J.D. Power just ranked them the number one choice for new bank accounts in America. And that's not a small thing. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of free ATMs. [55:23] cash back on a category that you actually picked yourself. [55:28] Your savings rate, nine times the national average. That's crazy high. Go to chime.com slash Rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for more details.

[55:54] How long ago did you convert to Christianity? Well, I grew up Catholic. I was an altar boy when I was a kid. [56:03] I knew one really great priest in my life who helped me with my life. [56:08] I became a labs Catholic. And then when, at the tail end of living in LA, in Malibu actually, I was usually successful as a screenwriter. [56:26] of course, and I was being interviewed all over the place and people were stealing mail from my mailbox and all that shit. [56:38] I should have been overwhelmingly happy with that, but something was missing, I felt. [56:43] and I couldn't really put my finger on what that was but something was missing in my life [56:47] and then I got throat cancer [56:51] stage 4 throat cancer shortly after we moved back to Cleveland from Malibu and then the [57:03] The Cleveland Clinic and a surgeon named Marshall Strom did a surgery that they had never done in this country, that they had done in Switzerland, where they took a muscle from the left side of your neck and attached it to your larynx. Stage four was very dicey and he was very honest with me. [57:21] about how dicey it would be and he did it spectacularly and here I am at 81. But in the course of all of that when I was terrified and

[57:39] and really frightened from one day to the other. I ran across Jesus. [57:45] reading and partly Naomi's influence because Naomi also grew up Catholic and she had a very strong... [57:56] very strong faith and then I went to church a couple of times and I loved the Mass the Mass itself [58:09] And in the course of recovery, and it was about a three-year recovery for some time I couldn't speak, and then I spoke like Brando, and then I squeaked. [58:23] In the course of my recovery, I did everything I could physically to help. I jogged and walked and did all of those things, and I recovered. And I felt afterwards that the reason I was able to beat a stage 4 cancer, [58:39] had to do with my prayer life. [58:41] And then I started reading voraciously about Jesus of Nazareth, the apostles, all of that, ancient Jewish history, Catholic history. And some of that really moved me as well. [59:00] So I started going regularly to church with Naomi, and then as the boys were boarding with the boys as well.

[59:09] And as time went by, excuse me, [59:13] As time went by, I also started having issues with the Catholic Church. I continued going to the Mass because that was a very special thing to me. But I had issues with the history of anti-Semitism in the Church. The issue was with sexism in terms of not allowing women to be priests. [59:43] with the Pope making so-called infallible decisions. And I just shut most of that off. Although in the process of it, my Christianity didn't suffer at all. But sometimes I felt like I was becoming a kind of an agnostic Catholic. Yeah. [1:00:01] the [1:00:03] and my faith in Christ, even as all of that happened is unflagged. [1:00:10] I still pray to Jesus, pray specifically to Jesus. [1:00:16] And he continues to be a major and important figure in my life. So your issues were with the organization as the Catholic Church? Yes. Yeah. Yes. I respected Martin Luther's revolution because he revolted against those same kind of issues.

[1:00:40] As I said, the mass continued to hold me. Worship is terrific, and I really believe in it. I actually, the kind of worship that really moves me is black spiritual worship, full-scale emotional, I give myself to you, Jesus, kind of worship. [1:01:00] And I felt I didn't want to really switch religions because I had my basic Christianity. [1:01:10] All right. [1:01:10] So you felt moved by like Baptist, black Baptist. Yeah, like Baptist. The old emotional, throw up your arms and say, okay, here I am, take me, Lord. It definitely seems a lot more fun. It's fun. They're having way more fun. It's fun. I also have been very fortunate through the course of my life to have black friends and to share the black culture. I was involved in the civil rights movement. [1:01:40] died for killings and told to get the fuck out of Neshoba County. I had the good fortune to have lunch with the Reverend Martin Luther King. Oh, wow. I knew Stokely Carmichael well. What was that like? Well, the most amazing thing, he was in town because of the death of a minister in a protest.

[1:02:10] he became the towering international figure. And he was heading back to the airport, and he couldn't find his ride. And I happened to be right there, and I said, I can drive you, Reverend King. I was watching, and he said, okay. So again, on the way to the airport, he said, are you hungry? I'm hungry. Can we stop someplace? I said, sure. So we did, and the... [1:02:38] What amazed me about the man is that he was more interested almost in hearing about my refugee camp experiences and what that was like and how that worked and all of that. He said he didn't know much about it. Then he was talking about the Civil Rights Movement. Wow. He was very, very moving and a powerful figure. [1:03:08] it. [1:03:08] you know, that I felt. Clearly. Yeah. But then I also, when I was in college, I had a relationship with a young black woman. [1:03:19] And that brought me much closer to black culture. I mean, I was an ethnic fucking kid, you know, a refugee. And I certainly needed lessons in that whole cultural area, and I got them. And then I sought them out. [1:03:38] But Ewan Newton was over in Oakland, and he would come over sometimes. I think partly, I'd partly suspect, because at Rolling Stone, we had some of the most beautiful women of the world working there. We didn't have air conditioning, but when it got real hot, they didn't wear a top at all. So what about that spread? They were topless? They were topless when it got real hot. What year was this? Was it in the 60s?

[1:04:08] 76. Wild times. I was right in there. In the years where the cultural revolution was exploding, the women's revolution was exploding, and to be at Rolling Stone at that time was like being in the vortex of all of that. It was just a craze time. The sexual revolution was [1:04:38] absolute height. And I've always, as I said to you, I've always really loved smart, sassy, sexy women. And the whole office was filled with them. I'm sure. What year was the birth control pill invented? I have no idea. [1:04:57] 5. 64. Let me guess. [1:05:01] I'm sorry. [1:05:01] I'm just taking a wild swing. [1:05:03] I have no idea. [1:05:06] Approved by the FDA and introduced the mark of 1960. [1:05:09] 68? 60, 60-year-old. 1960. [1:05:13] Interesting. Yeah, well, that had a big factor, right? Yes, absolutely. Because before, you know, women were in a situation where every time they had sex, they could get pregnant. Absolutely. And then all of a sudden, but then you've got this pill that's fucking with their hormones that we found out now that women that have been on it for a long period of time, they make poor choices in terms of mates. It does a lot of weird stuff. [1:05:36] I mean, we're learning a lot of weird stuff. Yeah, and also it's very dangerous for them. A friend of mine, his daughter died. She was 17 years old. She was on the birth control pill, and she was smoking cigarettes.

[1:05:49] I guess smoking cigarettes and birth control pills for some people can cause blood clots. [1:05:55] I don't understand why or what, but... [1:05:58] That is an issue, right? You're not supposed to smoke if you're on birth control. See if that's still the recommend date. Well, obviously they tell you not to smoke, period. [1:06:07] But I think there's some... [1:06:08] potential complication. Smoking while taking oral contraceptives that contain estrogen significantly increases the risk of severe cardiovascular events like heart attacks, strokes, and blood clots. The risk is particularly high for women over 35. [1:06:22] Quitting smoking or using alternative birth control is highly recommended. [1:06:27] This episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening to this podcast on your phone? If you are chronically online, like most of us are these days, your wireless network should be too. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G and unlimited hotspot, all powered by Verizon's 5G network, the perks of big wireless for half the cost. Visible isn't just a wireless plan. [1:06:57] designed to keep you connected and no contract holding you back. Switch today at visible.com. Plan start at just $25 a month. Or get our premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code ROGAN, an exclusive offer for podcast listeners.

[1:07:20] This episode is brought to you by Blinds.com. Texas summers don't mess around with patio surfaces easily reaching 150 degrees. Hot enough to make your backyard feel like a punishment. And if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees. Get ahead of it with custom solar shades for your den and your patio for Blinds.com. Whether you want to do it yourself or have a pro handle everything, they've got you covered. [1:07:50] but still have access to real design professionals. They'll even send free samples. Blinds.com has been doing this for 30 years, and they back everything with a 100% satisfaction guarantee so you can order with confidence. Right now, my listeners can get an exclusive 40% off when you spend $500 or more at Blinds.com and use the promo code ROGAN40. Limited time offer, Blinds.com, promo code ROGAN40. Rules and restrictions apply. [1:08:20] Yeah. Joe, I had more fun at Rolling Stone than any other time in my life. I bet you did. I had Jan Wenner in here once. Yeah, I saw him. It was an interesting conversation. He kept looking at his watch. Well, he was, you know, he was Jan Wenner of 2024 or 2025, not Jan Wenner of 1975. Yes, absolutely. You know, not the Jan Wenner that was the editor when Hunter Thompson was writing crazy stories and [1:08:46] You know, different times. People change. [1:08:48] You are a big Hunter fan. Huge. And I know, and so am I, and I wanted to talk about him because I really haven't had a chance to talk about him specifically. Hunter really...

[1:09:02] was the cause of my whole huge success, even as a screenwriter. Let me tell you how. [1:09:10] I was a reporter at the Plain Dealer. [1:09:13] And I had read Hunter, of course, when he was the National Observer, doing those kinds of pieces from Latin America, before he discovered Gonzo. [1:09:23] And I covered at the plane dealer, I covered a Hells Angels shootout of a bar called Bartos Cafe in Cleveland. And I wrote a story about it that the Associated Press picked up and put on their national wire. [1:09:42] And I get a note shortly afterwards. [1:09:49] from Hunter Thompson, who had read this story on the AP wire and wrote me a note that said... [1:09:57] and I'm barely paraphrasing, big fucker, now there are two of us who know how to write about Hell's Angels. That really pisses me off. All the best on Dress Townsend. [1:10:11] That must have been a fun thing to get. Oh, man, I was as excited about that as my two sons were to meet Joe Rogan. They really, it was really, really something. [1:10:27] and I get a call from Rolling Stone. I know when I've heard of it first, I do a couple of freelance pieces for Rolling Stone, one on Kent State one year afterwards and the other, I forgot what the other one was, but then I get a call from the managing editor, Paul Scanlon, who incidentally was the backbone of the editorial content.

[1:10:57] on the New York Times for Rolling Stone. So, and they wanted me to do a freelance piece on narcotics agents, corrupt narcotics agents. So, I go out there and I'm going to go out [1:11:10] And I discover that... [1:11:13] that Hunter had been after them to hire me because of that piece. And he kept saying he was a good guy and all of that. Then when I'm at Rolling Stone, I write a book called Charlie Simpson's Apocalypse that Hunter loves. By now we know each other and we're friends and we enjoy each other's company. [1:11:43] literary agent in the country and then gets me as publisher, which is Random House, to publish it. And then to boot, blurbs it when the book comes out. And somebody, a United Artists, sees it. Oh, and then the book becomes a finalist for the National Book Award, one of the fourth finalists. Wow. Okay. So somebody, a United Artists, reads the book, reads because she reads all the finalists, [1:12:13] Because you've got really cinematic talent. You thought about writing a script and I said, no, I haven't. And I go to meet them and they hire me and I write this, all of that. [1:12:23] which led to my success in screenplay, then in the cinema, was Next to Hunter.

[1:12:29] Wow. And the friendship we had was, I never, our friendship was in San Francisco. He lived in Moody Creek, and he would come to town. Our friendship was in town. But we ran a lot together. We enjoyed each other. We drank together. We both liked drinking. On occasion, we would, good story, we would go down. [1:12:59] I think around O'Farrell Street and stuff. And he and I went down there together. There was a famous stripper show [1:13:08] in one of those clubs. And one of the times we'd get down there, he, of course, would take acid before every trip down there. I wouldn't do acid, but I did acid once, and I don't know why I'm holding me for an hour. [1:13:21] But I was the guy from Cleveland, right? Which he always, you know. He said, well, you're from fucking Cleveland. [1:13:28] Anyway, I would start some lines, and we'd go down there. And we were waiting for about an hour. [1:13:38] girls haven't come out. And Hunter suddenly gets up, hurls his arms up in the air and says, where's the pussy? We want pussy, right? I don't know, great memories of my life. Of course, I settle him down and all of that. And then when they finally start coming, very loudly,

[1:14:08] life, no doubt, colorful figure, but also what he was. And then I discovered this. [1:14:15] And he didn't really share this with that many people. He was very, very well read. [1:14:21] He had a whole other side that was a very sensitive and un-hippie-like side. I saw it most clearly once. [1:14:34] I was married at the time to a former reporter at the Plain Dealer who was very, very straight and really rejected the whole hippie thing. [1:14:45] and worked in California for a small suburban paper. [1:14:49] And Hunter had never met her, but had heard of her. He said, I'd like to meet her. So we asked him to dinner. And Hunter came to dinner at our small... [1:15:00] tiny apartment in Nevada and my wife at the time. They cooked a Hungarian chicken paprikash dinner. [1:15:11] Okay, it's Hungary's most famous meal. And he sat there with us. And what I discovered was that the boy from Kentucky was there underneath all of that firepower and all of that larger-than-life behavior.

[1:15:41] After dinner, I drove him back to town. [1:15:45] For the ride back, he berated me because I was having an affair with what he called this hippie chick. He said, you have this wonderful wife here, and you're fucking around with this hippie chick. I mean, true beration and anger and all of that. He had that side as well. Yes, he did. If we had breakfast, it was at 4 in the afternoon. [1:16:11] four margaritas, six beers, and maybe, maybe toast with scrambled eggs. And in that sense, he had more tolerance than anyone that I'd ever seen. And my tolerance in those days, for Boots especially, was also very high. But I'd never seen anybody quite like him. He had a great sense of humor. [1:16:40] As... [1:16:40] many, many years later. [1:16:43] he wanted me to write the screenplay for Rum Diary. And I hadn't seen him in a long time. And I had just met Naomi, of course, to whom I've now been married 32 years. And the... [1:16:59] and he wanted me to go to Aspen so that we could talk about it. [1:17:04] And I called he on, and I said, listen, I'm head over heels and blood with this woman, you know, and Hunter wants me to go out there, tell me the truth, what kind of shape is he in?

[1:17:16] And he sort of pauses, and he says, well, he's good. And then he's in another pause, and he says, but, you know, the Stones were in Denver, and Mick and Keith decided to come visit him between gigs. So they hire a driver, and they drive up here, and they have a terrific time. [1:17:46] night. So they say, we've got to go, we've got to gig, blah, blah. And Arnold gets all upset and says, well, you just got here. And they said, we've been here three or four hours and stuff. Well, he continues to be upset and he leaves the house and they're sitting there and suddenly they hear gunshots. He had gone out and shot the tires out on the Stones car. [1:18:16] took Naomi there. I was too frightened to do it. What year was this? Well, let's see. It was in 90, is that 90-something, four maybe? Maybe you said somewhere around... [1:18:27] five, four, five. Yeah. Three, four, five, somewhere in there. He had been going hard for 30 years by that point. Yes, he had. Or at least... [1:18:36] And also, the end for him, I've read and heard, it was very sad, because the sadness wasn't caused by the drugs, it was caused by Booth. And he was, in Leon's opinion, and he saw him often in Woody Creek, and in his former wife's opinion, Sandy's opinion, it was the Booth that did it.

[1:19:00] You know, his body began being old, and he needed a wheelchair. [1:19:06] walk. She drove him in the wheelchair at one time, I think in New Orleans when they were visiting Sean Penn on a film. He actually fell out of the wheelchair in the middle of traffic and Anita couldn't really pick him up and so they had to get help and cars were going by and all that shit. And then he also broke a leg when they were visiting Hawaii [1:19:36] As he said in his suicide note, which I thought was the most gut-wrenching, but also terrific suicide note, it was no fun anymore. The fun was gone. Nothing was fun. No football, no this, no that. No fun. Well, when the body goes. [1:19:53] It's hard to have fun. Yeah. [1:19:55] And that's the problem with booze. Yeah, exactly. Well, the problem with many drugs, but particularly the problem with booze. You're breaking down your body. [1:20:03] over and over and over again and with a guy like Hunter who's doing it every day. [1:20:08] Yeah. There's a famous... [1:20:12] that this reporter wrote when he went to visit Hunter. [1:20:15] and he documented Hunter's drug and alcohol use throughout the day. [1:20:20] you know, like six in the morning in the hot tub with champagne. Like that's the end of the day. And then him sleeping and then him waking up and, [1:20:29] doing all the drugs and then getting ready to write. And what was the guy's name?

[1:20:33] who wrote the [1:20:35] there's a guy who [1:20:38] took me and my friend Greg Fitzsimmons reading it out [1:20:42] and turned it into an EDM song. Really? Yeah. Eugene Carroll, I think. [1:20:48] No, no, no. [1:20:50] and it says that a memoir of Hunter Thompson [1:20:53] us from [1:20:54] Right, but the singer, the song. Oh, you said the movie broke. [1:20:59] Yes, the guy... I'm sorry. The guy who wrote the... [1:21:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [1:21:06] It's like an electronic dance music song. We played it before, many times. God, I can't believe it's like... [1:21:15] beardy man thank you this guy beardy man [1:21:18] put it to music and it's hilarious. It's amazing. I mean, it's a tragic story in a lot of ways, but, [1:21:25] But in his prime, the writing that he did… [1:21:29] was in many ways it was the narration of an era. [1:21:34] It was, and it was genius. You know, there was this thing called the New Journalism, and I practiced that, and so did people like Angel Ease and David Elverson and Larry L. King. But then Donder took that and created an entire new genre. The Gonzo journalism thing was his, and it was a kind of humor that just knocked you down, and totally revolutionary.

[1:22:04] Wolfe said, who of course was one of the people, the founders of the New Journalism, said that he was today's version of Mark Twain in terms of what he was able to accomplish. Two books especially I thought, the Fear and Loathing in Vegas, of course, and the campaign book, the 72 campaign book, which in my mind is the best political commentary, including all of Teddy White's books. That's fantastic. Fear and Loathing on the campaign trail. Yeah, Fear and Loathing in 72, yeah. [1:22:34] was because he was a one-time guy. He was going to go in there and follow the campaign for the entire time. [1:22:41] and then wrote this book about it. But Joe, these were all stayed, the shoe-tie-wearing reporters, and you turned this big creature loose on them on the campaign trail, and of course they all fell in love with him, and they did, because he was such a free spirit compared to what their lives were going to be like. Well, imagine you're doing this boring thing, which is following a bunch of fakers, as they're telling you how they're going to change the country, [1:23:11] been doing this for 20 years. Absolutely. And then along comes the guys like, let's do acid. Come on, pussies. All of a sudden, you've got this fucking maniac who's drinking and saying wild shit and writing wild shit. And he doesn't have to be held to the same standards as everyone else, because he knows it doesn't matter. If they never have him back again, it's fine. I'm so sorry that Hunter wasn't here with Trump's time.

[1:23:39] Oh, my God. Because that could have been fucking wild and hilarious. But there's also a party that says he would have liked Trump. I know this is heresy to liberals, you know, who do think that he's a, you know, that he would have absolutely hated him and all of that. But I'm not certain of that. And I think that certainly in terms of his style, he would have liked things about him. Well, I think he would have liked the fact that he's this wild character. [1:24:09] A completely wild character that has never existed in all of presidential politics before. There's never been anything like him. No. For good or for bad. There's never been a guy like him. [1:24:18] And what he did today, I mean, he had a shit fit with Netanyahu. Yeah. And he said, you know, you're fucking crazy. Yeah. You would have been in jail except for me. I saved your ass. Yeah. What other president, for God's sakes, has ever spoken like that, not only publicly, but to us? Right. And in that sense, you know, I'm proud of being a deplorable. I'm from Cleveland. [1:24:48] and blue-collar people, and he's the first president, that didn't talk down but talk directly to us. Yeah, for good or for bad. Oh, yeah, absolutely, for good or for bad. Yeah, I mean – [1:25:01] He's he is who he is, which is very odd. You know, it's a very it's a very odd person. I have a lot of questions in certain areas, you know, the ice area bothers me.

[1:25:16] the whole shit with the ballroom and all of that stuff. Well, the ballroom doesn't bother me that much. That's, to me, trivial construction. Like, whatever. The ice stuff... What bothers me is... [1:25:30] we're opening the door for militarized police on our city streets. As many people say, look, we've got to get these immigrants out of here that are illegal. There's a lot of criminals in this country. There's a lot of people that are committing crimes. I understand that. I understand that perspective. [1:25:45] My perspective is not that you need to get the criminals out. It's that it is a very slippery slope when you... [1:25:52] give people, and they're trained for seven weeks. They're not trained for very long. They're trained for much less time than police officers, much less time than military. And then [1:26:01] You have this militarized police force that has no identification in there on the streets. [1:26:07] That's a precedent that you might like it when it's for a cause that you support. [1:26:14] But that could easily be for a cause that you do not support. That militarized police force could be going door to door and confiscating guns. That militarized police force that you could find other ways where a different ruler could use this precedent in a very damaging way for our free society. [1:26:33] That's my perspective on it. I agree with that. [1:26:38] When they start calling people like that woman who was killed in Minnesota and the guy, the domestic terrorist, it's an abomination. Which woman is that? That woman who was shot by ice in Minneapolis. Oh, yeah. And then the guy afterwards, the week afterwards, was also shot by ice. Yeah.

[1:27:03] They called him domestic terrorists. But to give credit to Trump, he got rid of Cristino. He got rid of that guy who was there that Tom Holman replaced. Well, Tom Holman was already in charge. That guy was in a different position. But they did get rid of that guy. Also, that guy had a very odd way of dressing. Yeah. [1:27:21] That was very like he he wore outfits that were like reminiscent of like Nazi Germany. Like he had this very weird coat that he would wear all the time. And a lot of people were saying this is a very odd choice for someone to be wearing who's being accused of fascism. See if you can find some photos of that dude. [1:27:39] the coats that he was wearing were a lot of people like I had to make sure that this was an AI I was like Is this this real coat that he's wearing? This is very strange. I mean not accusing him of anything. It's just a fucking coat [1:27:50] but [1:27:51] It was a lot of people online were pointing out, like, this is a very odd wardrobe choice for someone who's in charge of... [1:27:59] in many ways othering human beings. The other thing that's a problem with this whole ICE thing is... [1:28:05] And it's not the fault of the ICE people or even this administration. [1:28:09] Many of these people... [1:28:11] We're encouraged to come here. [1:28:12] That's what's so fucked. Imagine if you're living in Guatemala [1:28:16] And you're encouraged to come to America. You live in a terrible third world situation. You have a – wherever you're living, it's like deep poverty. You're told that they'll help you get across the border. Right. [1:28:28] They'll literally transport you into America. [1:28:31] They'll put you in these cities and you can get on public assistance. If you have a bad back, they'll put you on Social Security. There's all these different programs that are incentivizing people to come to America. The Red Cross is giving you maps. People are showing you how to do it. They're letting you across the border. They're letting you into the country.

[1:28:51] Two years later, you're being chased down. Two years later, you've got masked ice workers that are pulling – I mean, it's like – it's – [1:28:59] Very inconsistent. Obviously, this is a completely different administration, but I feel for those poor fucking people that were told that they can come here and that there was going to be a pathway to citizenship. [1:29:10] So they upend their life. [1:29:12] They come to America, and the only way they know how... [1:29:15] And when people say, oh, they should do it legitimately, sure, a lot of people do it legitimately, and I understand their perspective that it's a very difficult path, and no one should be able to cut that line, and they went through it the right way. However, these people, that's not an option for them. [1:29:30] If you don't have any money and you're living in a third world country and people encourage you to come to America – [1:29:35] I most certainly would have come to America just like they did. [1:29:40] Joe, I did. My parents did. [1:29:43] You know, I personify the American dream in terms of what happened to me. You know, what they said in the camps was the streets of America are paved with gold. Right. When we lived on Lorraine Avenue in Cleveland, there was a Hungarian poet, a mad poet. His name was Achimra, who would go up and down Lorraine Avenue screaming in Hungarian, old one, old one, which means where is it? Where is the gold? Right, right, right. [1:30:13] I came in here as a kid. I couldn't speak the language. We knew no one. I got into serious juvenile trouble. I got out of that. I studied. I was a total autodidact. I wasn't a good student, but I did reading.

[1:30:30] I went to college. [1:30:34] I wanted to be a disc jockey for a while. I was named Joe Anthony. It's a song that's through the sad suppriming secretary, right? [1:30:43] This kind of shit. [1:30:45] I went to college. I did well in college. I won a big award as a senior. [1:30:56] I kept working. And I also, through the years, got a terrific amount of help from Americans. Couldn't have done it without him. [1:31:13] by Hungarian parents and spoke Hungarian. [1:31:17] Moving on to people in college who helped, I found a great deal of help. I couldn't have done what I achieved without the help of other people and other Americans. [1:31:34] And then to top everything off, [1:31:36] you know, the Hollywood and 18 films and all of that, um... [1:31:41] Yes, I think that is the personification of the American dream. And many of the immigrants who come here are looking for the same dream. And many of them are saying what Matt Achim has said on Lorraine Avenue, Old One, Old One, where is it? Right, yeah. And part of the reason that the stuff in Minneapolis breaks my heart is that.

[1:32:11] Latino people are my cousins and brothers in terms of not the killers and not the gang members, but people who are gardeners and who work in stores and trying to make a buck and have kids and they're trying to survive. This episode is brought to you by Dodge. The new Dodge Charger scat pack is built for people who still believe driving should be exciting. You want to talk about performance? Let's start with a twin-turbo six-pack gas engine. [1:32:41] All gas, no mercy, 550 horsepower, 0 to 60 in just 3.9 seconds, and a top speed of 177 miles an hour. [1:32:53] Unlike vehicles that make you choose between traction and attitude, the Dodge Charger Scat Pack comes with standard all-wheel drive and a selectable rear-wheel drive mode so you can get confident handling when you want it and the freedom to still be able to do burnouts. Available in both two-door and four-door models, the new Charger Scat Pack, it's loud, it's fast, it's powerful, and unapologetically Dodge. [1:33:23] Learn more at Dodge.com. Dodge is a registered trademark of FCA US LLC. This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. One thing you probably don't think about when you're planning the perfect summer getaway is protecting your home. But if disaster strikes, you want to be prepared. Even better, if it can be stopped before it happens. So check out SimpliSafe.

[1:33:53] time before it starts. There's also no long-term contracts and no technician appointments. You can get a custom system and set it up in one afternoon by yourself or even sooner. It's one of many reasons why millions of people continue to trust and use SimpliSafe. Everyone deserves to have peace of mind, which is why I'm happy to partner with SimpliSafe again and offer an exclusive [1:34:23] dot com slash Rogan. That's half off at simply safe dot com slash Rogan. There's no safe like simply safe. Well, it's also part of the ice story, too. Absolutely. Part of the ice story is that a lot of these officers are Latino, including the two guys that shot Alex Preddy. [1:34:42] Those two guys were Latino. And they took these jobs because these jobs give you, first of all, you get a $50,000 signing bonus. [1:34:50] to join ICE. [1:34:52] I mean that's a significant amount of money for someone who's in debt or who's struggling. So this is how this guy dressed. [1:34:59] Look how this guy dressed. That's kind of crazy. [1:35:03] See that image? That's a coat. Yeah, look at that coat. Yeah. I mean, come on. That's kind of a crazy World War II military coat. That's amazing. [1:35:13] A little odd when everybody else is, you know... [1:35:17] The other thing is the masks. [1:35:19] I understand. I understand the need for them, that they get doxed, their families get doxed, and it's very organized. This is not organic. These protests are not organic. I understand all these arguments.

[1:35:30] Yeah, I'm bothered by the mask, too. It's a good sample to me. It's also, it sets a very bad precedent. This is the problem with it all. You know, the real thing is you shouldn't be able to have organized, paid-for protests where you're paying people to protest, and you're paying people to cause violence. And then you're also using people as political pawns and moving them into the country so that you could change, like, when you have congressional seats, it's all based on the census. [1:36:00] Regardless of whether or not they're legal or illegal, you get more congressional seats. So they use them for political points. Yes, they do. Absolutely. Same old political game. Yes, same old game. And that game should be illegal. That shouldn't be legal. The idea of the America dream is a beautiful dream. And they've corrupted it. And they've taken this and used it for their own gain. And they've weaponized empathy. [1:36:23] And it's a real problem. It's a real problem for those poor people that came over here looking for a better life. Listen, I have an idea. Run for president or write your speeches. [1:36:34] Listen. No, that attitude is really terrific. I think you're right to be concerned. You see it. Listen, I'm 81 years old, but I really see it too. And there's great dangers there that I hope my sons don't have. [1:36:53] It's a very dangerous precedent. But then there's the other question, like, how do you get all the criminals out? I don't know. I'm not the guy. I'm not the one, but I am...

[1:37:02] very concerned with this dangerous precedent. That's my feeling on it. So I just worry that people accept it because they want this result now. [1:37:13] And they don't realize that this could set up this being a common occurrence. I mean, we saw some of it during COVID. There was some militarized police on the streets keeping people in lockdown in certain cities. They utilized the National Guard and they did things like that. That scares the shit out of me. It scares the shit out of me when you have a justification for militarized police with masks on that are just grabbing people. And some of these people are American citizens. It turned out a lot of them were American citizens. [1:37:43] You know, we had the same syndrome. I covered the Kent State massacres. I covered that. And one of the things that I saw is the rhetoric that was coming from James Rhodes, the governor at the time, and from Sylvester Del Corso, who was the head of the National Guard, was absolutely the main thing that created that atmosphere that caused that shirting. [1:38:13] and they're great dangers. [1:38:16] Yeah, you would think that we would learn, but we go through cycles where we learn, we get better, and then we repeat the same things again. You see that with racial tensions. You see that with political unrest. You see that with a lot of different things in this country. It's like we learn. [1:38:30] for a little while and then we forget martin twain's wisdom once again comes through martin

[1:38:37] Politicians are like diapers, and they should be changed often and for the same reason. [1:38:42] Yeah. He also said, history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. [1:38:48] Yeah. He also said, a little bit off the subject, but I love it, and he said, when the mind and the pecker argue, the pecker always wins. [1:39:03] Yeah. I mean, he was essentially the original stand-up comedian. Oh, you're absolutely right. [1:39:12] piece on him. And stop me if you know the history. But in the beginning, he was a stand-up with his so-called lectures that he did all over the West. And then he wrote some books, the books that he's famous for. But he went bankrupt nearly at the end of his life because of bad investments. And then he did a round-the-world tour of stand-up all over again. And usually, [1:39:42] of the profane, because these are usually for male audiences. He published a little book called On Masturbation, which is about the glories of masturbation. The only thing I've heard that's close is in the stand-up by one Joe Rogan, which there's a great line that says, if you're married and have kids, the only place to find peace, the way he would say with the

[1:40:12] is if you rent a motel room and lock the door. But he had the same kind of verve and love in terms of being a stand-up, being outrageous, pushing the envelope. And that whole side of Twain has been sort of hidden under the notion that he is the great of Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer and all of that. Nobody talks. [1:40:42] from the voice of the devil. He wrote another one he called The Mysterious Stranger, which is about Jesus coming back in a very dark way. [1:40:51] And then he wrote one that was published in the 30s that hasn't been republished called Twain Erupts. So yes, you're so right when you say he was stand-up. He was a first-rate stand-up. He was the originator because he was essentially a very witty author. [1:41:09] who wrote very provocative things, very hilarious things, and then would read them publicly. And when he was doing these speeches where he would go and, you know, whatever you call it, poetry or whatever it was, there was no stand-up comedy back then. There was no name for it. But he was just riotously funny. [1:41:26] People loved them. Absolutely. And they would go to see them because they were funny. And the initial audiences were mostly male audiences. Right. [1:41:36] I think he's a great, he's never been really done. [1:41:42] To do a piece, a fictional piece about Twain as a stand-up with pushing the envelope with all these things, I think would be a lot of fun.

[1:41:56] be a lot of fun the only problem would be like the cultural context are so different back then it's almost like um did you see lenny the dustin hoffman yeah great film i mean i think dustin hoffman fucking nailed it it was as close to lenny bruce as you're ever going to see someone portray lenny bruce [1:42:13] The problem is the world has changed so much since 1960. [1:42:17] that a lot of the outrageousness is gone and it seems very pedestrian like the things that he is saying because he was such a groundbreaker in society was so locked down and and and so conservative and so you know just that there was just the way people communicated was much different back then the understanding of culture and of race relations and sexual relations was very different back then and so the outrageousness [1:42:45] of what he was saying back then, it just doesn't really translate. Because in many ways I think stand-up comedy in particular is a window in time. [1:42:54] It's a window into the way people behave. Films are that way as well, especially if you go and watch a lot of old films. It's a window into how people perceived reality back then. [1:43:06] There's some stuff that's rarely been published from Twain. [1:43:14] that hasn't really been seen very much, that was left in places like the University of California archives, that go a step past what we know from Twain. And I think there's so much of it, there's something called Twain's Notebooks that hasn't been published in their full form, certainly, that may still be shocking.

[1:43:40] I'm still playing with it because I'm reading and reading and all of that, but even if I never do, it's so much fun reading about him and his life. [1:43:50] because he was such an interesting character. Well, I hope you do write something about it because it would be great for people to see and to get an understanding of him because I think a lot of young people, particularly today, just think of him as an author. Just think of him as the guy who wrote Tom Sawyer. Tom Sawyer. He's been pushed into being almost a kid's writer. Right. Speaking of stand-up, I want you to know, and I don't think you know, did you know that Sam Kinison dedicated a CD to me? [1:44:16] Did he really? [1:44:18] Sam Kinison, one of his last CDs was called Leader of the Band, B-A-N-N-E-D. Right. And on the flip side of the CD, he thanks a bunch of people, Ring Azov and record people and all of that, and also Sly and Sean Penn. And then after all of that, in larger letters than the others, [1:44:46] Michael Ovitz. [1:44:48] That's amazing. Amazing. What letter did you write to Michael Ovitz? Michael Ovitz was the top dog agent in town running CAA. [1:45:01] And I was leaving CAA because my best friend and rabbi in the business was an agent named Guy McIlwain, who had been running Columbia, became an agent again.

[1:45:16] because of my love for God. And I went in to see Ovitz and said, I'm leaving the agency. And Ovitz said, if you leave the agency, then my foot soldiers who go up and down Wilshire Boulevard will put you under the ground. Oh, Jesus. What the fuck? You know, so I thought about it for a couple of weeks. Jesus. And I wrote him a letter, which essentially said, fuck you. [1:45:41] You know, I'm leaving. I'm going back to the person who started me in the business and the person I love. And it turned into a major controversy with headlines all over the place. Put you under the ground with strong words. Oh, man. There was a producer named Bernie Brillstein. I know Bernie. He wrote a memoir. [1:46:02] Years later, we said those exact words had been used to him as well. Wow. Yeah. [1:46:11] It's obvious that the whole controversy with Ovis really hurt him because other people had been threatened that way, and he had a reputation for that. And he actually was out of the business, not much past that. But the notion of Guinness, and I love Guinness' work, the notion of Guinness, and when I saw that thing, I was overwhelmed. [1:46:38] He was one of the greats. He was one of the greats, absolutely. [1:46:41] still maintain that for like a period of two years two or three years he was the most profound and revolutionary stand-up comic ever i agree i agree he came out of nowhere he was so different than anybody else you know i was introduced uh to kinnison by a girl that i work with i was working at a um

[1:46:59] a gym called the Boston Athletic Club in South Boston. [1:47:04] There was a girl that worked at the front counter who was hilarious. She was a volleyball player. Really hilarious girl. And she told me about Kinison and reenacted one of his bits in the parking lot of the club. Told me what she saw on TV about. He had that bit about homosexual necrophiliacs paying money. She's on her stomach laying on the – she was so funny. She was on her stomach in the parking lot going, oh, oh, life keeps fucking in the ass even after you're dead. [1:47:34] ends! It never ends! [1:47:36] And I was laughing so hard that I couldn't wait to go out and get that videotape. And I got that videotape, and I was only 19 at the time. I had never even thought about doing stand-up yet. But that was, like, one of the first times that I was like, oh, this is stand-up? Like, I didn't know that this was stand-up. [1:47:51] I thought stand-up was like, did you ever notice? Like that kind of stuff, what you'd see on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. I had no thought ever that this wild shit was stand-up. [1:48:02] And you know, [1:48:03] Credit to HBO because before then, you would never be able to see that kind of comedy. [1:48:09] The only way you'd be able to see it is in the movie theater. It'd have to be like Richard Pryor, Live on the Sunset Strip, which predated that by a few years. [1:48:16] and [1:48:17] No one had any... [1:48:19] understanding that there was this kind of stand-up comedy out there. [1:48:24] that this wild motherfucker used to be a priest [1:48:27] He used to be a preacher. Yeah, I know. And he comes to L.A. and is this wild, coaxed Norton fucking demon comedian who's just different than anybody else before him.

[1:48:41] and just changed comedy. There's a few people, there's a few characters along the way that have just completely changed comedy. And I think Kennison is one of the big ones. He was absolutely amazing. I adored him. I thought he was a groundbreaker. And when I saw the CD, I went, holy shit. I have two of his albums. Two different people have gifted me his first album. God, what is it called? [1:49:09] Is it called Louder Than Hell? [1:49:11] I think it's called Louder Than Hell. And... [1:49:14] they're signed. Both albums are signed. Both signatures are totally different. So I don't know which one's real or if either one of them are real. That's a problem. Like people buy stuff off eBay. They want to give you a nice gift. They buy an autographed album and... [1:49:28] It might not even be real. He was a preacher and... [1:49:32] That last conversation when he died with Jesus when he's conversing, it's mind-boggling. Mind-boggling. Yeah. He's literally having a conversation with someone as he's dying. [1:49:43] Yeah. It's obviously Jesus. It's a Jesus figure. I mean, is it my time? Right, right. Amazing, especially amazing considering where he came from, what he went through, what he did with comedy, and then that ending. Yeah. There was a movie made, wasn't there? But it wasn't very good. About Kinison? Yeah. I don't know. I think it was a while for a while I was thinking about that, too. I have a problem with reenactments of a guy who is that profound.

[1:50:13] Someone's playing them. [1:50:16] I agree. I try not to watch because it's just the actual work of the guy going back and watching his HBO special and watching his stand up appearances on Letterman and listening to his first album. The first album I listened to it was like, Jesus Christ, this guy's incredible. [1:50:32] It was just so different, so crazy. [1:50:35] And, you know, and he was the first guy that was like, [1:50:39] Open about doing cocaine like open about partying. I [1:50:44] You know, I mean, he was a wild boy. [1:50:48] Thank you. [1:50:48] It reminds me, I'm sorry, Hunter in terms of being wild to buy coke. My first story when I was at Rolling Stone was a piece about corrupt narcotics agents. And as a result of the stories, the guy who was the head of the narcotics agency in the state of California had to resign. And as a result of that, I started getting plastic baggies full of coke at Rolling Stone from the various dealers who appreciated my work. [1:51:19] Whenever Hunter was there, I would present him with the back. And he would go, holy fucking Christ, you're getting these from people. One of the things that solidified our friendship. That's hilarious. I would have handed over. And that was back when cocaine was actually cocaine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it wasn't stepped on. You didn't get fentanyl. You didn't have to worry about dying of an overdose. It was the only drug besides smoking dope that I really, really enjoyed.

[1:51:48] acid once and not a rat to hold on to me because I was so freaked out. I can only imagine. When I watched Showgirls, I was like, whoever wrote this was doing coke. That was literally one of the first things I've said. I've always said that's like one of the heights of cocaine movies. [1:52:06] Not anymore, but certainly the memory of it was there was a show. Influenced. Absolutely. Influenced by cocaine. [1:52:16] Tarantino also really loved showgirls. [1:52:22] Well, it was a wild movie. And I remember because it was that girl, what was her name? Elizabeth? Berkeley. Berkeley. Elizabeth Berkeley, who was from Saved by the Bell. Right. So she was like this America sweetheart from this really nice sitcom. [1:52:36] He's a showgirl. And it's like, whoa. And she's having an affair with Paul Verhoeven. Right. He's moved out with his wife and is living with Elizabeth Berkley, right? Crazy. No. Yeah. Geez Louise. Wild times, right? Absolutely fun. Really fun. [1:52:54] that we're going to be able to [1:52:56] Jimi Hendrix story, because he's the Jimi Hendrix experience, and I wondered whether he had any kind of a godfather impact on the Joe Rogan experience. Oh, 100%. I stole the name from Jimi Hendrix. Jimi Hendrix story. 100%. I mean, when we first started doing the podcast, I would always listen to Voodoo Child on the way to the comedy store. Coming Over Laurel Canyon, that and Whole Lotta Love, those were my two favorite songs to listen to on the way to the comedy store.

[1:53:26] psyched up for shows. [1:53:28] You'll love this story. Okay, I'm a reporter at the Plain Dealer, and all of our editors barely know about rock and roll. And as I said, I've loved it all my life. And when Hendricks came around, I loved his work. And he's in Cleveland for an appearance, and the fucking Cleveland cops have gone crazy, and they're saying that this caused a riot, and it's obscene, and all of that stuff. [1:53:58] Hendrickson covers concert. [1:54:00] So I do cover his concert and it's jammed in the Cleveland arena and people are loving it. And I've set up a date to interview them the next morning at the Cleveland Hotel. [1:54:11] Okay, so I show up the next morning and I'm the Plain Dealer reporter. I've got a tie on and a sport coat, you know, and they go in. I think it's 9.30. And he's up, but he's barely up and he's wearing shorts and a T-shirt and his hair is, [1:54:30] But on this occasion, there were a lot of beads and things in his hair as well. And it was totally scruffed up. [1:54:37] And we talk about rock and roll mostly in his background. And the fact that he had been, I think, as a backup, as a kind of guitarist in the Ricky Nelson band that had been in Cleveland a couple of years before then. He'd done this pre-stuff before he went out on his own. And we get along.

[1:55:00] We were fucking dope, of course, at 9:30 and by fucking 11:30 we both got the munchies. And he said, "Man, I'm hungry, you know, you want to go to any place? I've got a car waiting for me downstairs." So I said, "Sure." And we go down and then Mitch Mitchell and Chaz Chandler join us, the other members of the experience, who are equally [1:55:22] looking like CD characters, you know, but it's that time of morning, it's after concert, all of that. So we pile into this limo, and I direct them to go to... Buckeye Road is the center of the Hungarian community in Cleveland. [1:55:37] In the center of the Hungarian community on Buckeye Road is a restaurant called the Balaton. [1:55:42] Okay, and I direct them to go to the Bolaton. Now, they know me at the Bolaton because I used to live on Buckeye Road. The big stretch limo pulls up, play glass window front, filled with old ladies with babushkas and guys very formally dressed. We get out in front of this place. [1:56:00] These Martians, three Martians get out of the car. And I lead the men. And they're on guard. And I'm like, what the fuck? What is this? You know, they made me the, they're just following me at the end. And I see Jimmy looking around and shit. So they seat us. The major D knows me, so he calls me aside. And he says, who are these people? Who are these people? And I say, Jimmy Hendrix, big rock and roll star. You know, he's in town.

[1:56:30] Oh, Hendrickson, yeah, Jimmy Hendrickson. So we sit down, and Jimmy says, you order for me. Great. So I order a chicken paprikash for him, which is the big Hungarian meal. [1:56:44] And Chaz and Mitchell order something else, but very Hungarian stuff on my advice. [1:56:51] And interestingly, as we're sitting there, the maitre d' has obviously spoken to people [1:57:00] Mr. Hendrix Earl will 28 grand prix. Wow. [1:57:06] Wow. And he's gracious. He says, sure. [1:57:09] But he loves his paprikash and wants to order another. At this point, we've knocked out two bottles of wine, I think, and we're still rolling from all the dope. So they bring that up. At the end of this, he had three orders of chicken paprikash. He signed. We had like four bottles of wine. We staggered out of there. [1:57:36] 10 autographs for people who come around bowing. And as we walk out of the restaurant, he takes his fist high up in there and says, Hongry, Hongry. [1:57:49] That's my Jimmy Hendrix story. That's awesome. Ron White was telling us a story the other night in the Mothership Green Room, the Comedy Club Green Room. And he was saying that when he was, I think he said he was 13 years old, he went to see the Monkees. And Jimmy Hendrix opened for the Monkees.

[1:58:06] booking of all time. They opened? Oh, my God. Exactly. So this is when Jimi Hendrix was emerging. He really hadn't become Jimi Hendrix yet. And so he's the opening act for the Monkees. And so you have a bunch of kids that are there to see this really cute band that was pieced together by corporate executives, essentially. [1:58:27] You know, the Monkees, fun band, but, you know, they had a TV show, and it was a very clean, sweet TV show. [1:58:34] Hey, we're the monkeys. You know? And then you've got this guy opening up for them. Just jamming on the guitar. Wow. And they were freaked out. They're like, what is this? Like, what is going on? And he said nobody liked it. It was terrifying to people. Like, who is this guy with his guitar? Like, what the hell is he doing? [1:58:54] Great story. Many years later, I thought about writing a Hendrix movie. [1:59:00] And I was working with a producer friend named Ben Myron, and Ben rounded up his brother. [1:59:08] And we actually brought him to Malibu. And unfortunately, we discovered that the rights were so screwed up in between relatives that there's never been a Jimi Hendrix movie, because people couldn't agree on the deal of any kind. But it still would be a terrific movie, I think. Oh, it would be a phenomenal movie. [1:59:30] Docudrama. Wasn't there, Jimmy? [1:59:35] I believe, do you remember it?

[1:59:37] Yeah, it was Andre 3000 from Alka. That's right. But they'd like... [1:59:42] couldn't really use all the music and stuff, I think. [1:59:45] Oh. [1:59:46] I'm sorry, I didn't hear Jamie. He said it was Andre 3000 from OutKast. I see. And that they couldn't use all the music. I see. I think. It came out like 10 years ago. That was an issue back then, too. I remember that. Yeah. [2:00:00] That's right. [2:00:04] That's right. Wow. Also, the day after you're talking about in Cleveland, there's a recording of the concert. [2:00:11] Oh, wow. Oh, shit. That's my face. Is that right? Do you leave one concert? [2:00:15] Yeah. Wow. I've got a few different links. They kept taking me to Facebook, but there's a bunch of pictures. Whoa. [2:00:21] March 26, 1968. Wow. Then there's a recording of the concert, too. [2:00:27] So you can listen to the recording from the concert? Yeah, I was trying to get in here. There's like... [2:00:31] There's an article from his legendary trip to Cleveland. [2:00:35] Wow. But this was like paid walled, so I couldn't get all the stuff behind it. Wow, man. He was the nicest guy. I can imagine. Yeah, very nice. Nice guy. Just laid back. [2:00:47] Well, he was just an insane one of a [2:00:52] Not even one of a generation. One of one talent. [2:00:57] I mean, to this day, if you ask most guitarists, who's the greatest guitarist of all time? It's Jimi Hendrix. Yeah, yeah. [2:01:03] That's crazy that one guy who died at 27 years old, and wouldn't he die in 1969 or 1970? Yeah, somewhere there, yeah. That that guy to this day is universally regarded as the greatest guitarist of all time. Yeah.

[2:01:18] You know, I interviewed him. I was known as the Grim Reaper at the Plain Dealer because I interviewed Hendricks. [2:01:23] Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, [2:01:28] And Otis. And they all died. They all died. I did a feature on Jose Feliciano. And people would come up to me at the plane deal and say, what do you have against Jose? Why do you want him to die? [2:01:43] That's crazy. It's just unfortunate that they all died. And they all died at 27 years old, which is really... Was that right? I didn't know. Wow. Hendricks, Joplin, and Morrison all died at 27. Wow. And... [2:01:56] Who else? [2:01:57] I love you. [2:01:57] Kurt Cobain [2:01:58] Amy Winehouse. At 27? Yeah, it's all 27. 27 is the magic number for insanely talented people to die young. [2:02:07] Yeah. [2:02:09] Very weird. [2:02:11] you've had an incredible life, man. You know, I've been blessed. I've been really blessed. First of all, the fact that I'm still here at 81, considering some of my excesses in the past, is miraculous. It truly is. I started smoking when I was 13. Whoa. I stopped when I was 60. Whoa. And I had stage 4 cancer, and Marshall's Solem surgery saved me. [2:02:41] hard most of my life until I was 70 and I finally stopped then. Only because I have a hard-headed Italian Polish wife who said, "Enough, you're falling down. You're taking 12 pills and you're falling down. No fucking more." Now, shortly after we were married, literally after we exchanged the vows, she turned to me and she says,

[2:03:11] She whispers, she says, if you... [2:03:14] "Cheat on me. I'm going to fucking hunt you down and kill you." Okay? I listened to her. I listened to her. I listened to this woman. Sounds like a fun lady. She is. She is and she's... I'm very proud of her because it... [2:03:31] and 67. [2:03:33] the mother of four, and truly the true head of our family. She's writing her first, she's written her first novel, which is called Dark Church, and it's set in Dracula's Transylvania. Whoa. And it's a kind of gothic thriller. [2:04:03] it up because I promised her that I would make this plug and I fear that if I don't, I'm going to be in a lot of trucking troubles. Thank you very much, Joe. [2:04:16] I love that when someone does something like that, when they're in their 60s, just say, fuck it, something I always wanted to do, let's do it. I think it's fantastic. Thank you. [2:04:25] I just love when people do, like, fuck your age. Who cares? Just put it out. Write it. I agree. [2:04:32] But I have lived an amazing life, and I'm very thankful. [2:04:39] I've seen a lot. I've come out on the other side. I've seen a lot of darkness too. But when it's all over, Graham Greene, who's a writer that I admire, died, I think, in his late 70s.

[2:04:54] and he said, "We get to a point where we see the fence." [2:05:00] The fence is there, but we can't see over the fence. But the closer we get to the fence, the more curious we are about what's on the other side of the fence. And there are some people who decide that they're too curious, people like Hunter, and jump over the fence, right? I'm not doing that, but I'm approaching the fence. Yeah. [2:05:20] Well, I've lived a terrific life and only once again, only in America. [2:05:27] Yeah, only in America. Well, I'm glad you're not jumping over the fence. No. I'm glad we got a chance to talk to you. Although I really did admire his note, the no more fun note. It should be classic. Yeah, well, I mean, that's how he lived. And at the end of his life, obviously, it was not fun. No, no. Yeah. But Twain, I keep going back to Twain. This is a good one, I think. He said... [2:05:50] The orgasm is God's own payback. [2:05:54] For all the suffering that he overlooks in the world. [2:06:00] That's funny. [2:06:02] Well, it's like writers in particular are – they're so important to culture because they can – [2:06:11] put down thoughts in a way that reshapes the way people view things. [2:06:15] We talked about Hunter in the 60s and the 70s. He was the voice of that generation. He was the guy that was this intelligent guy that wasn't a part of the elite establishment, that wasn't a part of the rich fat cats.

[2:06:30] but was also famous and well-known. [2:06:33] but stuck true to his thoughts and his beliefs. It was able to articulate things in a way that... [2:06:39] gave you this understanding of what was going on with the people back then, that to this day, if you read Fear and Loathing on the campaign trail, or if you read Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, or... [2:06:49] Any of his work, you know, the Kentucky Derby is decadent and depraved like I [2:06:54] It's just a phenomenal encapsulation of that time. It goes alone, even something else. It goes alone. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that great? It's so important. [2:07:04] And we don't have a lot of that today, unfortunately. [2:07:08] podcasters and a lot of, you know, people making YouTube videos and TikToks and just not a lot of like... [2:07:14] great writing that encapsulates things where there's like one figure that we turn to to read. [2:07:20] There's stuff on things, and Hunter was that guy. Yes, he was, as Hemingway was for a previous generation. You know, Hunter and I talked a lot about Hemingway because of our backgrounds and earning a living and all of that. And I think that the fact that Hunter ended it as he did was sort of thought out many, many years before, but these were Hemingway's example. Inspired by Hemingway, yeah. [2:07:48] Unfortunately, that's how he did it too. [2:07:51] And they both shared in common that they drank to excess. Absolutely. But, you know, when I was a boy... [2:07:57] wanting to be a, and I wanted to be a novelist and not a screenwriter. Boy, the Holy Trinity were Hemingway, Fitzgerald, and Faulkner. They all died of alcoholism. Hemingway shot himself. Fitzgerald had a heart attack at a very young age while working as a hack Hollywood screenwriter, incidentally. And Faulkner fell off a horse, I think, in his early 70s, ripped, ripped, totally drunk. And these were the idols of young people coming up then.

[2:08:27] What do you think it is about alcohol and writing that go hand in glove? The – [2:08:35] Aye, aye, for a while. [2:08:38] I drank all day black coffee and a cognac. [2:08:45] And then later on in life, [2:08:48] I didn't have my first drink until noon, which I make way was 11 o'clock, and I measured it until... [2:08:58] and night [2:08:59] and then it was gin before it was white wine and part of it is [2:09:08] That if you're lost in this imaginary world that's in your head all day, you can't get rid of it. You can't make it stop. [2:09:17] And the booze makes it stop so that you can continue your normal familial daily obligations and schedules without having this stuff in your head all the time trying to crowd it out. The fact that sometimes – excuse me. [2:09:36] The fact that sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and take notes of something that the character says or something, indicates that I can't get rid of it. With the booze, when I was drinking, if I drank enough, I could get rid of it and begin it again the next day. It's partly freeing yourself. It's an interesting point. It's partly freeing yourself from something that you've created yourself.

[2:10:00] So in that sense, you create something that can hurt you, even if you create it. My greatest enjoyment was writing screenplays. It gives me a terrific amount of pleasure knowing that when people see this, it's going to make their own lives more pleasant for at least two hours. [2:10:30] to be able to do that with people. Oh, it's huge. And that's very important to me. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. [2:10:43] Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, [2:11:00] Proper training is required. Tremphaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremphaya today.

[2:11:30] Call 426-7736 to learn more or visit Tremfiaradio.com. [2:11:36] This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list, not one more. With Carvana, it is. Just go to Carvana.com, enter your license plate or VIN, and get a real offer down to the penny. No back and forth, no surprises, just an experience you can trust. Like your offer? Accept it. Schedule a pickup, and we'll come to you with a check in hand. Your car, your timeline, your terms. Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. [2:12:06] People think of it as trivial, that entertainment is trivial. I don't think it is at all. It shapes our perceptions of the world. Exactly. You do the exact same thing. You make people's lives better by enjoying what they're watching. And that is not as important or as dramatic as my daughter-in-law, for example, which has got her medical degree, who literally, literally saves people's lives. [2:12:37] And then Alyssa Esther Oz works in Texas at a hospital. And she just got her medical degree. [2:12:44] but to show the influence that Hollywood has on our culture. The other day she walks into a room and there's a gigantic big guy there who's yelling and screaming. You know, this is the sweetest person in the world and has this wonderful smile and really is great with people. And she's trying to calm him down and says, what's wrong? What's wrong? And she describes him as a really big man and is screaming and what's wrong? What's wrong?

[2:13:14] Thank you. [2:13:14] I want Brad Pitt. He was fucking in Texas, you know, in some hospital in. He says, you want Brad Pitt? He says, I want fucking... [2:13:25] Brad Pitt. But why? Why do you want Brad Pitt? He goes, because I want to fuck him. [2:13:37] That's a sweet woman. That's hilarious. Doctor confronted him with this. That man wants to fuck Brad Pitt. [2:13:46] One more example. Do you need a powerful effect in the culture? So when I write something, I don't want some guy to say, [2:13:55] To read to see it and say, yeah, this is all I want, Brad Pitt. Nor do I want Vladimir Zelensky to start a fucking war. Right. But I do want people to enjoy it. Right. That's hilarious. When you say that the alcohol silences the voices, I always thought of it as the other. [2:14:15] I thought of it as like alcohol releases people from their inhibitions and allows them to tap into this voice sometimes. I think that happens with some writers, but that's never been my problem. [2:14:27] There's something about going into a little room wherever you are, and you don't have to be in Hollywood. You can be anywhere. As long as there's a little room in the house you can escape to and sit there quietly and make shit up that you think people will enjoy.

[2:14:45] that's all I really need. Now, occasionally, I will play music without stop on certain scripts. It was the same way with Leonard Cohen. I listened to him a lot. And Dylan, of course. I did a movie with Dylan, which was also a funny experience. The [2:15:05] But sometimes it's music. It's not Coke anymore. It's not cognac anymore with coffee. I drank so much coffee that finally one day we had to call an ambulance because I thought I was having a heart attack. I would become allergic to it. It was just caffeine? Ambulance, caffeine. Ambulance is driving me down to Marine General, and there's a traffic jam. There's construction, right? And they think I'm having a heart attack, and I jump out of the ambulance. [2:15:35] with a hard hat. And I'll never forget it says Brinkhoff. His name is Brinkhoff. I'm yelling at him, I'm having a heart attack, you motherfucker. Get these guys out of the way. I'm dying. Of course, oh my God, it's worse than the guy who wants to fuck Brad Pitt. [2:15:50] The crazy thing is just coffee after all the coke and all the other craziness. Yeah, well even that guy, so I had to stop. [2:15:58] I stopped the coffee as well. The years after I stopped it, [2:16:05] I was in New York and I ordered a decaf espresso that wasn't decaf and I was up for two and a half days without being asleep. So obviously my system got totally screwed up. It got reset. Yeah, you lost your tolerance for it. But I never felt it inspired me.

[2:16:35] son. And of course, through all of this, it was nonstop smoking. Two pack a day smoking, beginning with Lucky's and Marlboro's and moving out to Galois and occasionally cigars and pipe and all this shit. So I did do that. But I never felt that the Coke was inspirational. [2:17:05] in handy. But it wasn't what fueled your writing. No, I never felt that it did. It was just recreational. But nicotine did. Yeah, absolutely. [2:17:13] Yeah, that's, you know, that's also, Stephen King said that, that when he stopped smoking, it was one of the most difficult things that he ever quit. Like quitting the booze and quitting coke and all that stuff was one thing, but quitting cigarettes, he said he really noticed the difference in his writing. [2:17:26] Well, yeah, I went through that. I was warned after it. [2:17:31] after my cancer surgery. [2:17:33] by this army surgeon that I like so much that if you smoke or drink, you're dead. You know, you're dead. [2:17:41] understand that. And so I took it seriously. The drinking, my idea of not drinking at that point, was switching from Tanqueray to white wine. And of course, that got out of hand after a while, too, until Naomi jumped into the whole parade, you know, so... [2:18:03] And now you're completely clean. Totally. I've been completely clean. Does this all line up with your conversion to Christianity? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I needed Jesus of Nazareth's help seriously to be able to do all that.

[2:18:19] The... [2:18:20] and I did a lot of praying but I still believe in prayer and I believe in worship with a group of people there's a special kind of inspirational thing that I feel yeah no I agree with you I think there's something about all those people collected together yeah [2:18:36] that it's just like when you go to a concert and you feel the music with all the people that are enjoying the music. There's a similar thing that happens at a church. Very similar. Absolutely. We're meant to be together. We are tribal people, and we're meant to be together. And there's something about groups of people together, especially in a positive way, that unite us and connect us. [2:18:55] in a way that it's very profound. It's different than anything else. It's different than watching it on a screen. There's something about being in the presence of other people that are doing the same thing. [2:19:05] Yeah, you can feel a vibe. Yeah. And the vibe goes deep, and it's really inspirational. And when it's really working, I feel almost transported. I'm on a different level. And I feel myself being on that level, and it's wonderful. Yeah, and you can see all these other people experiencing the same thing. It's very transformational. Yeah. And I always talk about the parking lot of church is like the best place on earth. [2:19:35] Because everybody lets you go. Everybody lets everybody go in front of them. Everyone's kind. [2:19:41] You know, it works. That's what's crazy. Like, the teachings of Jesus do work. Yes, they do. Like, if you follow them, you will be a better person. Yes, you will. But people are very cynical, and rightly so. They're very afraid of people manipulating them. They're very afraid of...

[2:19:58] of cults. There you go. You got your cross right on you. Yeah. That's a nice one too. I like that. Thank you. People are very afraid of people telling them that they know things. [2:20:08] that they have the answers. [2:20:10] Yeah, I'm not afraid of that sometimes. I'm skeptical of it. [2:20:18] But it depends on where it's coming from. And sometimes, I don't know who you are, but sometimes I can feel something very special with someone who is talking about those kinds of things. You can feel the difference. And the difference between that and someone who's not genuine is very apparent. Yeah. You feel that as well. It bothers you. Like, I don't want to hear this guy talk about this. But you know what? If you have a shit detector, and you do, and so do I. [2:20:48] I can really feel that and pick it up and block it out. I think your shit detector works with virtually everything. I think the audience gets it too. I agree. In terms of if my shit detector advises me to do something, I must always do it. Yeah. [2:21:07] Well, listen, Joe, it's been an honor having you in here. You're a real legend. It's been such a pleasure. [2:21:18] in the interview and you made it into a very special [2:21:23] conversation chat between two guys

[2:21:29] who thankfully like each other. [2:21:32] and they talk for hours and they're inspired and they come out like each other and you do that to people and I think that's a great gift. Thank you. I thank you for the Joe Rogan experience. Thank you for being here. It's an honor. It's an honor to meet you and an honor to have you on here and I really enjoyed the conversation. It was awesome. Thank you. All right. Bye, everybody. [2:22:02] We'll be right back. [2:22:11] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. [2:22:23] Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. [2:22:37] I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier and isn't getting more time.

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