#2435 - Bradley Cooper

[00:00] the Joe Rogan experience train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day hey Bradley Cooper what's happening baby you know what it's like when uh [00:17] Like a Twilight Zone episode or something? [00:19] Where, like, you're watching the TV. This is an episode where, like, I'm watching the TV. And then all of a sudden you're inside the show. And you're looking at me. Yeah. And all of a sudden I'm inside the show. It's crazy. It's weird for me, too. It's weird for me that it gets weird for other people, too. Like, when I see people being weird about it, I'm like, it's okay. I feel comfortable, just so you know. Oh, good. You look comfortable. Yeah, no, no, no. It's excitement. It's weird for me. Like, I was trying to explain this to someone. They're like, do people have a hard time being comfortable on the show? I go, I kind of do, too. It's fucking weird. Yeah. [00:49] that that many people are watching. [00:51] Yes. And then you start thinking like, oh, don't fuck it up. Don't say that. Right. But if you think about it, [00:59] The fact that you did this long form setup and that we live in a culture where people taught at least say that it's all about short term. Yeah. It goes against it. The people are interested in it. [01:11] Yeah. [01:12] Well, the short term stuff does work. You know, like short attention span stuff is very popular, even with me. But I have been resisting it more and more lately. I'm like a fucking heroin addict, like slowly weaning myself off the drug. And the more I wean myself, the better I feel, like physically better. My brain works better. I feel more relaxed. I don't feel like this.

[01:42] he goes, even if it's not anything about me, he goes, there's just like a low level anxiety that I get. I'm like, yeah, yeah. [01:48] Yeah, because you know you're wasting your time chasing a fix that you're never going to get. [01:55] And you're just, like, getting these short drips of, like, oh, look at that. Oh, look at that. Oh, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll. But that's not what people really want. What people really want is something engaging, something you go, wow, that's a great documentary, which are still super popular. Like, a great documentary, they're still, you know, huge on Netflix and huge on YouTube. And Oppenheimer was, like, three hours long. Right, exactly. And made a billion dollars. Exactly. So people went. Humans didn't change. [02:25] You can hijack the reward system by giving them some short attention span nonsense. And it just like tricks their slow drip dopamine into like continuing to watch this stupid shit. But that's not what they want. No. No. [02:37] You know, it's not what I want. No. It's the difference between like, yeah, just a little drip of something that... [02:42] as the illusion [02:44] that I'm getting what I want as opposed to what I actually need, which is sort of [02:49] a reminder that I exist. Yes. Yes. And that I'm communicating with somebody and I can relate to it. Yes. Which is a different thing. And I only know this because I've never been on social media. But sometimes there was one time I got on somehow got on TikTok and it was all police footage. You know, like, and I was just I remember laying on my couch. [03:09] 40 minutes went by and I was just doing this. And it was like the first part of the video. And then what happened? And then like the second part, part two. And that was the only time I experienced, I thought, I got to stay away from this because I won't leave the house.

[03:20] It's bad. [03:22] It's bad for you too because it programs you to think that that is going on everywhere in the world. Like if you have 8 billion people that are interacting with people all over the world and you only take the worst examples of that and broadcast it and then it becomes viral and millions and millions of people think – it rewires your way you think about human beings. And the other thing is about memory. [03:46] Someone was talking about Niagara Falls the other day. [03:49] And I thought, I've been there, right? And I'm like, have I been there? Or did I see a video? Or was that one of the things when I put the Oculus on? Right, right, right. Honestly, I can't remember, but I know what it feels like to be looking at it. Oh, yeah. So it's changing the way memory works. 100%. Yeah. I've hit a wall in my memory, like a tangible wall. [04:19] They're like Dunbar's number. Like Dunbar's number is the amount of people that you can keep in your head. [04:24] Like because we evolved in these tribal scenarios. We evolved with like [redacted address] Dunbar calculated it, there's like very close, intimate, close circle people, which is a small amount. And then immediately after that, there's a slightly larger amount. And then it gets up to – what was it like? It gets up to like 1,000 people. 1,500. 1,500 people. That's the most amount of people you can keep in your head. So it's like five people that like your tightest of tight and then 15 like slightly outside of that.

[04:54] It gets all the way up to about 1,500 people, recognizable people. [04:59] I would think I'd be able to [05:01] That you could keep in your head. Yeah. But I'm way past 1,500 people, so I'm fucked. Right. There's people that I know really well, and then I see them, and I'm like, I don't remember his name. 1,500 sounds weird. And it seems bad. I'm like, why can't I remember his fucking name? I can't remember his name. I'm horrible with names. But it's just because my hard drive sucks. It's like I don't have enough room. Right. It's like, you know when the old iPhones? It's like you've run out of Mac space. [05:31] photos and videos now do you get anxiety with that or do you sort of breathe through and say well it's just the way it is i kind of just deal with it yeah it is what it is but but my memory itself is like very good and also very bad at the same time yeah me too i i have a serious problem remembering people's names well you think about how many people like as i was saying it i was like and i've watched the show so many times i was like jamie right that's jamie [05:54] Like, as you were saying, do I remember any of the guys I just met? I can't tell you one. I just met them, shook their hand, looked them in their eyes. They say their names, and it just goes in and out. And some people get upset. What's my name? I don't fucking know. Oh, you don't remember me? I'm like, you don't remember? [06:11] What's my name? And you're like, ah. Well, that's why in Hollywood people love to say, good to see you, instead of nice to meet you. Like, bitch, you met me two years ago. Like, I don't remember. Yeah, Leonard Bernstein did a great thing that he would always do. I loved you in the last thing you did.

[06:29] That's funny. That's funny. Speaking of which, I watched your movie. Is this thing on? And it's good. It's really good, man. Oh, thanks, man. It's one of the best representations of someone attempting to do stand-up. [06:41] It's a really good film. [06:43] But it's not really just about stand-up. It's about these people with his – it's about – they're actual human beings. Like these are complicated, real, like not caricature-ish, not cartoonish people. Like I get that these are real people. Right, good. Complicated, real people that are trying to figure out their relationships in the context of this one guy. Right. [07:08] Will Arnett, [07:09] It was tempting to do stand-up. Right. So it was great. I'm glad you say that. So you felt – because, you know, I – [07:14] I moved to New York in 90 – [07:20] And... [07:21] And then that was my introduction to any comedy world. Other than with my dad, I used to watch Rodney Dangerfield's New Year's Eve special. We used to watch it every year. And it was Elaine Boosler and Sam Kennison and Dice. Elaine Boosler, I forgot about that. I'm pretty sure she was on there. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was obsessed with Dice when I was in eighth grade. I memorized one of his records, and I would do it in the train station with all my friends. Because back then, that's all you did, right? You would memorize stuff. Oh, yeah, me too. [07:51] You know, you wouldn't all sit around. You would just memorize and then, you know, regale your friends with your impersonation of him. And then Richard Pryor was my hero, hero growing up.

[08:00] That was my idol. So I had this thing with stand-up comedy, and then I moved to New York, and I'm... [08:05] all of a sudden immersed with these clubs and and upright citizens brigade it just started and i did this movie what hot american summer and all there was all these people i didn't even know about the state remember that show on mtv there was uh-huh yeah all this and so i just you know little by little immersed myself into that world and i just became fascinated with the culture and then zach galifianakis who i met like in 2001 way before hangover i used to go and watch him do stuff and i just love the culture and when will was telling me about this i was like oh let's set [08:35] York and the cellar. [08:37] because I just love the geography of the cellar, too, that you go in the olive tree and you walk down into this place. It's this whole other world. And... [08:45] And it just felt like, yeah, I really wanted, like, can we pull this off where it's authentic, where you were watching it at home and you get a sense of the fact that you're saying that, you know, you feel like it got it, you know, within the striking distance makes me really happy. Let's talk about Service Titan, the AI for the trades. The trades are the backbone of this country. And for the first time, they've got technology that actually matches the work. Over 10,000 contractors already use Service Titan software to run their businesses. [09:15] Built by two guys whose dads were in the trades, this isn't some tech company guessing at solutions. Now Service Titan is building an AI trained on real trades workflows, not generic internet data. This is AI designed specifically for contracting work, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and more. It's booking calls while you sleep, dispatching your texts, helping you run your back office, growing your revenue.

[09:45] always learning, always improving. Every other industry is still trying to figure out AI. The trades are about to lead from the front. Service Titan, the AI for the trades. Learn more at servicetitan.ai. This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Okay. [10:11] Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. [10:41] meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier. And isn't getting more time with our four-legged best friends something every dog owner wants? The answer to that is... [11:00] is yes, obviously. So try the Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. [11:09] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, Traeger is a game changer. This isn't just a grill. It's the ultimate way to cook outdoors, delivering unbeatable wood-fired flavor thanks to the all-natural hardwood pellets that fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake.

[11:39] Just wood and fire and flavor. And what's truly wild is how easy it is. Just set the temp, load the grill, and let Traeger handle the rest. Grilled steaks, smoked ribs, even baked pizza, all on one grill. If you're into fire, flavor, and doing things right, check out Traeger Grills. [11:59] Yeah, it's striking distance. It's like one of the only films. Punchline was... [12:05] an interesting film, the Tom Hanks, Sally Fields. Yeah, of course. But it was bullshit. Like, you watch it, like, what, they have lockers? Like, what the fuck is this? [12:13] And also, the comedy wasn't good. It wasn't real comedy. It was like it felt flat and fake, and people were laughing at nothing. [12:20] The Will stuff felt real. Yeah. It felt real. You know, like the clubs felt like a guy trying to work out what it's like to be on stage and open mic. And then the fact you got Jordan Jensen in, who I love. Yeah, of course. She was fucking great. I texted her afterwards. I'm like, isn't she great in the movie? She's great. She's so natural. I mean, the minute I started shooting her, I was like, oh, wait a second. [12:41] Yeah, yeah. It was like, and the first thing I shot with her was one of her sets, and I was just up there with the camera, and I came around, and her profile, and actually, I felt like I was in the stars more, and she looked a lot like Gaga and Allie, like singing Shallow. Oh, wow. And I had, like, this weird moment. I was like, whoa. And then she was just incredible, and then as it went on, she had a larger part of the movie, and then that whole thing when they're talking about the small penis, and we go up to her, and just her writing that down, and she was just so fluid.

[13:11] She's got it, man. She's got it. She's great. She's really great. She's a really unique person. [13:16] Like a very unusual part, like even just talking to her on a podcast. Oh yeah, grew up on a farm with two moms and yeah, amazing. Yeah, she could do anything. I know, and she's so fun. She's fun on stage too. She's great, like working in the crowds. Very smart. Very smart. But like her character, like the way she interacts, I'm like, "Oh, that's so realistic." Like, "We should fuck!" Like that scene. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And then you go back to the like East Village or Chinatown apartment, you know, they live in one room. [13:43] Yeah, I believe it. Yeah, me too. It was great. It's like, you know, you're never going to really capture stand-up in a movie because it's like – [13:51] To capture what it is, you would need, like, years, months. And also you would need a movie dedicated to it. Exactly. The movie's not dedicated to it. Exactly. Do you know what I mean? It was just about, can I make you feel like you're there watching, that you're with him on stage? Yes. That what that could be like. Yeah. You know, the silence. And then the cameras, boom. There's nowhere to go. How did you work out the stand-up scenes? Did you have real audiences? [14:21] with SAG and all that, but we try to do it as authentic as possible, which is everybody that works at the cellar. [14:28] They're there in the movie, everybody who agreed to do it. So all the waiters and everything, the staff, that's all people that work there. [14:36] Liz, who's the manager, who plays the manager, she's the manager of the cellar. So all those people are real. But then the patrons, I can't remember what the email was or what the ask was, but like people who like to go to stand-up comedy. Yeah.

[14:49] who go regularly. And then once they were there, I never told them what was going to happen. I never directed them once. It was like whatever they're laughing at, that's it. And I don't do many takes. So you're getting an authentic reaction. Now it's hyped up because there's cameras there and it's a movie, but they're not told what to do. [15:06] It feels like that. And so and even in the mix, like we never added anything. There was no added laugh, nothing. Oh, that's great. Yeah, it's all because I was like, it's just got to be real because I wanted Will to just, you know, I just don't want him to act. Right. I just want him to. And that's why, you know, you Shane Gillis was kind of the first time he went up was here at the mothership. [15:25] Shane gave him four minutes of his set. And he and I and Will and I flew to Austin and we're sitting in the green room. And Shane was like an hour and a half late. And Tony was there. And he was so nice. I'd never met Tony before. And that's where I smelled the thing. You know, I did this. Oh, the smelling sauce. Yeah, dude, fuck me. That shit is no joke, dude. Yeah. [15:46] And that was the first time Will ever went up. And we were just trying some of that material and went up as Alex Novak. [15:55] do the thing you're preparing to do. Right. And think about how much that would cost. You can go into a room where there's real people. Right. And then every step that you're taking, you're in a club. So he did that. And then when we went back to New York, he did it like three times a week. [16:08] four or five times a night for like six weeks. Wow. Just so he could understand what it's like. And some people didn't know who he was. You know, you get a lot of tourists come into New York City. And there were nights where you knew that he when he said Alex Novak, they're like,

[16:22] Cool. [16:22] right not like you're not alex novak right okay let's see what you got and uh so that was really that was really great how did you who wrote this film uh he wrote it with this guy mark chappell it was uh it was a movie that was more about his uh based on this guy john bishop who's a real comedian is a very successful comedian in the uk and and he will met that guy on a barge somewhere [16:52] I was doing something else. [16:54] my wife and I were breaking up and I walked into a bar, a pub one night. I didn't want to pay the cover. That really happened to this guy. So he put his name down and they called him. [17:02] And then he was like, yeah, I'm getting a divorce and got a couple of chuckles. But he just loved it. Never done comedy, nothing before that. And he kept going back and he like was obsessed by it. And then like weeks later, his wife, a strange wife walked into a place he was doing an open mic at with her girlfriends and he was doing a set about their relationship. So that actually happened. Wow. I know. And then they got back together and they're still together. And then now he like he tours around the world like he makes a living as a comedian. [17:29] That's incredible. Yeah, so when he was telling me that, I was doing another movie, and I remember I was like, what are you working on? Because we've been friends for like 25 years. And he was telling me that, and I was like, I just imagine Will, because I know him so well, and he's so charismatic and funny and just has this presence that is kind of lacking. I don't feel like there's like a male archetype now that fits him. He's like Robert Mitchum. He reminds me of like a young Robert Mitchum, Will Arnett. And he's telling me that. I'm like, his voice and like that face, stand-up comedy. I just couldn't get it out of my head, Joe.

[17:59] like, hey man, can I read it? How far along are you guys? And I read it and I was like, I didn't quite, because like you, I'd never seen a movie that I thought nailed it. And I love stand-up comedy so much. [18:09] I was like, and I have no desire to try to redo it. And also comedy is so massive right now. And the specials are so great and cinematic right now that there's no reason to try to make a fictional movie about something that we can watch as a documentary or a docu-series or a show that is authentic. I was like, so, but I still would really love to capture it cinematically. So what if it's a foil and the movie's about the two of them? Because that's interesting. Yes. And you suck. [18:39] One of the great scenes where Jordan was like, you're bad. Yeah, she's like, you're bad, you're really bad. [18:45] And it's much more about just what stand-up comedy, with anything, and you talk about this on your show, doing anything that puts you out of your comfort zone, anything that pushes you, you're going to improve as a human being. That was really what that whole thing is about. And I just love the culture and the world, and I thought there's so much tangible stuff there for me to get excited about cinematically and story-wise. But really, it's like, [19:09] It could have been anything. [19:11] Just something that he'd never done that he had put himself out there and that in doing it, he just sort of gets more comfortable. And then the mic comes off the stand and then he's leaning against the wall. And by the end of it – [19:23] And then the way it was structured... [19:25] It allows him to do that vampire set. [19:28] at the end of the movie, where all he's doing is exercising what he's feeling emotionally because he's comfortable in this setting. Yeah. Because the old him, when he has that fight with her in the attic...

[19:39] He just would have kept that all inside and he would have been canatonic at his kids assembly where we meet him in the beginning of the movie. [19:46] because you just don't know what to do with all that. But if you have an outlet, [19:49] something expressive. Yes. You can, you can, you know, exercise it in a healthy way. [19:56] Yeah. So that that's that's that really was the point of that whole part of it being stand up comedy and open mic. What you really nailed is someone trying it for the first time. You guys really nailed that. You really nailed a beginner in comedy. Like it seemed completely realistic. Great. Yeah. And like I think that's one of the reasons why Kill Tony is so popular. Yes. You know, because you get to see you can't that that raw reality of someone who has never done stand up before. [20:26] There was people that went up at Madison Square Garden in front of 16,000 people that had never done stand-up before. Dude, dude. No, no, no. Who knows? Don't do that. Yes. You should be in a fucking smoky room. Well, not smoky anymore, but a tiny fucking room where disinterested people, where everyone's bombing and you bomb too and it's not that big a deal. Right. Because you might have some potential. Right. [20:50] But if you fucking bomb in front of 16,000 people, the pain of that, you may never recover. Also, just think about the audio, because you're going to hear your voice. [20:58] through the echoing. It can't be just an echo. So I imagine there's an echo. So you're not only bombing, but you're hearing it. [21:05] Reverberate you don't really feel the echo you don't hear the echo because you have monitors on stage So it's I see you pretty flat. Okay, but

[21:13] The noise of your voice where you've never heard your voice into a microphone before ever. Right. And now you're in front of 16,000 people doing it. And then Tony's sitting there looking at you and Shane's there and I'm there. It's like a nightmare. It's like you're walking into a nightmare. Well, just doing stand-up in front of a guy like Shane Gillis is crazy. Crazy. He's sitting right next to you. You've never done stand-up. You're going to do stand-up right next to a guy who's selling out arenas. Like, that's nuts. Yeah. That feeling is nuts. [21:43] Reactions happening in real time. Yes. Okay. If your New Year's resolution was change everything and be a new person, good luck. So instead of pretending you're going to meal prep kale forever or do morning cold plunges, here's one actually realistic thing. AG1. [22:00] AG-1 is a daily health drink that supports your energy, gut health, immune health, and helps fill common nutrient gaps. Just one scoop in cold water each morning and you're off. It's got over 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food ingredients in there. So instead of guessing whether you need a probiotic or a prebiotic or sorting through 10 different bottles of pills and powders, you can just do one scoop and get on with your day. It's great because it feels like the grown-up move, but for once, it's actually really easy. [22:30] like 30 seconds and you'll notice the steadiness that sets you up for the day not wired not crashing just functional human being energy i partnered with ag1 for years and if you want to give it a try head to drink ag1.com slash joe rogan and for a limited time you'll get a free ag1 duffel bag and free ag1 welcome kit with your first ag1 subscription order

[22:55] Only while supplies last. That's drinkag1.com slash Joe Rogan or visit the link in the description to get started. It's not processed. It's as clean a mental food as you're going to get. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Yeah. [23:11] It's just that we – I think human beings really love seeing what it's like when someone starts out doing something because a lot of people have these ideas like, oh, maybe I could try that or maybe I could learn how to play guitar or maybe I could do that. But it's just the getting going and sucking at something in the beginning is terrifying for people. So when they see someone just try it, I think they're like, oh, look at him go. Look at him go. He's out there doing it. He's on the bike. He's moving. [23:41] people that are trying to do something that they've never done before. And it's exciting. And also the one thing I wanted to touch on is the craft of it all, you know, that it's that it takes a lot of work. I know that it's not, you know, just, you know, the writing, you know, she says that one point, she's like, you gotta write. [23:56] And keep going up. And I think most people, at least I didn't know before I started going, that people go up three or four times a night. Like I didn't understand. So that was something I thought was important to convey, just the work ethic that's needed. Well, New York is really great for that. And it's always had a culture of that. It's had a culture of guys hopping from club to club and doing set to set because there's so many clubs in Manhattan. So guys would just, you know, I think the most guys, I ever heard one guy did eight or nine sets a night.

[24:26] Wow. That's how many clubs there are. Right. So you just hop all over the place. You start your night at like 8 p.m. You finish at 2 a.m. Yeah, downtown. There's a ton downtown that you can go up to. Yeah. [24:35] You go all over the place. [24:38] We've got a lot of that here now. There's just so many clubs in Austin now. I mean, when we went there, what you build is incredible. [24:45] Thank you. The culture, everything. You know, I showed the movie to a stand-up who hadn't done stand-up in like... [24:50] 15 years and he said the only thing that for sure you got wrong is the culture. I was like, what do you mean? He's like no people aren't that nice and I was like so [24:57] Actually, I think you're wrong. [24:59] I was like, it's changed. [25:01] I was like, people are supportive now. It's in where you go. There's places where it's not very supportive. But at least, like, I used to go to the cellar, like, in early 2000s. Didn't feel like it does now. Right. Well, I think Ari Shafir changed that a lot. He brought, like, the culture of L.A. to New York, where you're, like, more supportive of each other. It was always, like, dog against dog. Because, really, the way it all started out was in the 1990s, it was all about everyone was auditioning for a sitcom. Right. [25:30] And if you and I were if I showed up to audition for a sitcom, like, oh, fuck, Bradley's here. He's going for the same part. Fuck that guy. You know, it was like that could change your life. If you got that sitcom. Now, all of a sudden, you're fucking huge. And I'm still like struggling to pay my rent, eating ramen. And it could have been me. Right. And so there's this like serious resentment that happens in the 1990s because everybody like the golden carrot. [25:54] at the end of the stick was The Tonight Show. Or, you know, hosting a late... If you could get your own late-night show, oh, my God, he made it. He's a host of The Tonight Show. That was, like, the thing that only one person could get. And then there was, like, the sitcom. Like, if it really worked out, they'd make a sitcom around you, and you'd get a development deal. So there was...

[26:12] People would psychologically backstab people. People would talk shit to people before they went on stage. They would try to hijack their fucking mind. Like, really, it was dark. Crazy. And then the Internet came around. And then the Internet, instead of people being your competitors, they became not just your friends and not just your colleagues, but also an asset. Because if you're doing a podcast and you've got your funny friends on, then your podcast is better. Right. [26:42] tell people about their podcast and their podcast is better. And then you go on their podcast and that's better. And everybody benefits from everybody else doing well. So it completely reversed the system. And then it became much more about being supportive of each other. And then everybody kind of realized like, hey, it's way more fun when we're all having fun. [27:03] Since the television thing kind of died off, the sitcom thing kind of died off with reality shows. [27:09] And then it was really just more about getting clips up on the internet and about getting – and then there was Netflix specials. So it wasn't just everybody trying to get an HBO special. There was way more specials. And then you could just upload specials to YouTube and it became – [27:22] This way more collaborative, supportive environment. And then Ari Shafir took that that we had kind of like established in L.A. and brought that to New York. And a lot of those guys ran with it. [27:34] Yeah. I mean, that's the way to go. People always say, you know, there's a lot of room at the top. Yeah. There's a lot. There's a lot of room in stand up for sure. You know, and it's like, and everybody has their own lane, even within this big highway. And everybody wants to be with other people who wants to be a lone wolf, really, for a long period. Yeah, there's a few out there, but they're all psychologically destroyed. They're just a mess. Yeah. Who doesn't want to have friends? It's crazy. Yeah, I don't get it. But

[28:00] But it's that aspect of the culture I felt like in the movie you guys nailed, which is a realistic aspect, a realistic portrayal of what it's like where a bunch of people just – [28:11] They were all busting each other's balls. Yeah, exactly. You could be supportive and still honest. That was the thing. There's no lack of honesty or criticism. It's just it's not done with the hope for your demise. Yes. That's the difference. Yeah, I think the 90s poisoned a lot of comedians. It poisoned them because it gave you this idea that the whole thing was about a means to an end, and that end was a sitcom. And everybody thought you just had to get a sitcom. You've got to get a sitcom. [28:41] he was working towards. There's people that were developing their entire act based around a persona that they could sell to the networks. Were you doing stand-up before your sitcom? Yes. I see. Okay, so is that how that happened? Did someone see you and then they were like, oh, you gotta try this show? Yeah, I got... [29:00] I was ridiculously lucky. Like, you know, a lot of people say, oh, I work really hard to get on a sitcom. Nope. No, I got lucky. I did MTV. I never had any aspirations to act at all. I did MTV Half Hour Comedy Hour. I got a development deal. And all of a sudden, I'm living in L.A. and I'm on a sitcom. And it happened in a couple of months. And a great sitcom. I was on a bad one first. I was on a bad one called Hardball. It was a sitcom on Fox where I played a baseball player.

[29:30] retarded. I was 25 years old, 26 years old. [29:35] And I was like, oh, this is going to take off. I should get an apartment. So I had a lease on an apartment, and I wanted to move. I'm sure people were telling you that it was going to take off, too. Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course. Everybody believed it. Yeah, you're going to win an Emmy. Well, the guys who made it, Jeff Martin and Kevin Curran, they worked on The Simpsons. They worked on Married with Children. They were really good. Oh, wow. But then the Fox people came in and just ruined it. Like, the executives came in, and they brought in a bunch of hacks and just ruined the show. Did you have fun doing it? Oh, yeah. I had a kind of good time. But I also missed comedy, and I missed New York people. [30:05] I wanted to get out of there. I was like, I got to get back to New York. Fuck this place. As soon as it was over, but I was like, fuck, I got this lease. So I had a lease for a year. [30:13] And then I got a development deal. So how long were you in L.A. at that time? Oh, I was only in L.A. for a few months. Wow. Yeah. [30:20] So I moved out there to do the show. Right. I got a lease like almost immediately. And then I was out there for a few months. Show got canceled. [30:29] And then I got a development deal to do something for NBC. And they were going to do my own sitcom. And but as we were developing it, they said, hey, there's a show that we're doing. It's called News Radio. It's already been picked up. We already did the pilot. But we fired one person from the pilot. [30:47] And we want you to read for this. And that's how I got on NewsRadio. That's how it happened. [30:51] That was the only second show I ever auditioned for, ever. Wow. So I had one show, went on air, got canceled. You had a very unique track. Dumb luck. That's nuts.

[31:00] Stumbled into it 100%. I can't take any credit for it. That's amazing. Just my ability to keep it together in auditions and not crack with no acting experience at all. [31:11] But it was just not – it wasn't something that I aspired to. So it didn't have the kind of pressure that it probably had for a lot of people. And it probably didn't have the same kind of elation too. Right. Like you – I assume if it was not something you really wanted, it was like it was fun, but you weren't like this is – this is like – this feels right. No. What it felt like is, ooh, I'm going to get money. Yeah. I'm going to get some money. Yeah. Then something's wrong. That's what it was like. Something's wrong. I was like, this is good. I'm going to get money and I don't have to worry about money. That's how I thought about it. Right. And then when I was doing it, I was like, wow, I'm so lucky. [31:41] Stumble and I'm here with Phil Hartman. This is crazy. Yeah, it's crazy, dude. Dave Foley and Steven Root. It's crazy. Mora Tierney. Like, this is nuts. Yeah. It was a crazy cast. And Sorkin wrote it, right? No, it was Paul Sims. Paul Sims, right. Yeah, who had just left Larry Sanders' show. Right. So he left Larry Sanders. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it was crazy luck. Just stupid, dumb luck. That's right. Sorkin did that other show with Jeff Daniels, right? Yeah, it was a lot of fun. [32:04] Um, so, but, but back in those days, like everybody was working towards that. And fortunately I already had that. So my thing was just like, continue to work on standup and just work on my standup. And if this all goes away, I'll just go back to being a comic. And doing standup in LA. Yes. Right. So, and so that was new. That's yeah. And that's where I encountered like the worst backstabbing I've ever seen in my life. So you're coming from New York where you didn't feel that. You didn't feel it as much. Right.

[32:34] like a lot of shit talking but that was fun you know guys would make fun if you bombed right they were doing it to your face yeah they were doing it to your face and [32:42] It was a more ball-busting, silly environment in New York. It wasn't – no one thought they were going to get famous in New York. They were all just doing sets. Right. [32:55] But in L.A., everybody had this idea to get a sitcom. And then in the 1990s, they started giving out development deals. That was the big thing. You get like a $200,000, half a million dollar development deal. And then all of a sudden, you have all this money and you're living it. And so everybody was working towards that. So it became instead of like people working towards just being a stand-up, it became stand-up was a means to an end. And then all these other people, they were in your way. [33:22] to get that goal. [33:24] Jesus. And then your agent was telling you that's what you had to do. Right. Because they wanted that money too. So it was all like programming people to go after the sitcom. So completely different culture in the stand-up community there. Exactly. Exactly. [33:35] But then that all went away. [33:37] It all went away. The idea of working towards a sitcom is like working towards a career in ham radio. It fucking went away. Well, you say that Ari changed it. How did he do it? Because he brought the L.A. culture to New York. [33:51] Ari moved from L.A. back to New York. And, I mean, everybody that I talk to in New York is always like, you guys are doing it wrong. [33:59] And people listened to him. Yeah. Well, because he was established and he was a really good comic. And they were like, okay, he's right. Wow. And they would come to me. They would come to LA like a lot of guys like Andrew Schultz and a lot of these other guys, they would come to LA and they're like, bro, everybody's so fucking nice here. And they're all just having a great time. Like, why aren't we doing that? Why aren't we just having a great time? And so it shifted.

[34:20] It was the culture of the internet. The internet changed everything because there was no longer this one thing that 100 guys were trying to audition for. Now it was anybody could just – [34:32] put up something online. And then all your friends became assets. They all became like valuable to you instead of competitors. [34:40] That's cool. [34:41] Yeah. [34:42] Do you go up in these cities ever now? I do. If I'm in L.A., I'll still do sets in L.A. I haven't been in a while. But, you know. [34:49] Most of the time I'm at my own club. Right. It makes it way – also I have teenage kids and I want to be home. Did you do The Cellar? [34:58] Yeah, I did the cellar back in the day. But more I did. I did the stand. I did catch when it was there. I did. [35:08] I always did danger fields. Danger fields was great because it was like a hole in the wall. There was hardly anybody there. Is that where he shot his special? Yes. Wow. [35:18] Yeah. It was big in the 80s, and then something happened. And by the time I got there in the 90s, it was, like, fucking dead. One time I went there, and I had a spot at, like – [35:28] 8 30 and i don't remember what time the show started but there was a few people on before me and i got there and the people that were on before me were sitting at the bar i go what's going on there's no crowd like there's no crowd there's nobody and so then this couple walked up and uh they bought tickets for the comedy show and and this guy bobby who's the doorman like step right up he was a scottish guy come on in i have you seated he seats them down there's no one there just them they sit down ladies and gentlemen welcome to danger fields your first act and

[35:58] For two fucking people. Wow. Yeah. The whole night was two people. And they had a great time. I'm sure. But it was weird. It's like when you're doing stand-up for just two people. You're only looking at two people. But you also realize how much of your act is bullshit. How much of your act is like fucking dance moves. It's just nonsense. Like English on the cue ball. It's like you're doing a lot of silly things that like don't even – and you're not connecting with real humans. Right. [36:28] It cuts the fat out of all of your shit. And you recognize where the flaws in your writing are and the flaws in your delivery. Yeah. [36:37] But Dangerfields was... [36:39] It was a wild little place. It was... [36:43] Like a classic comedy club that... [36:46] Didn't have any. No industry went there. No agents. No managers went there. Always. Yeah. It was just like a bunch of weird degenerates, and it was fun. Wow. That was a fun place. [36:58] So I did that club a lot, but I did the road a lot. Yeah. [37:02] Because that was how I could make money. And I could headline. I could do an hour. Because if you're in the city, you're doing 15-minute sets or 10-minute sets. That's great, but it's hard to piece together an hour at a 10-minute set. Because you kind of want to let the material breathe and put it all together. Yeah, of course. And compose it into one big thing. And you really can work on that a lot more if you're actually headlining. Do you watch a lot of specials, comedy specials nowadays? I don't. [37:27] I watch a lot of comics when I see them at the club. Live, right, but not like...

[37:32] No, I probably should. I probably should watch more of them, but... [37:35] Really, comedy is... [37:37] is, [37:38] It's like an artistic form of hypnosis. And the real way to see comedy is to be there live. Right. And you know when the person's locked in and you know when they're not. You feel it. [37:49] They got you, like they're thinking for you. Yeah. If I'm watching a tell. [37:54] He's at the mothership and he's killing. We're all like this. We're locked into his brain and we're letting him take us on a ride. It's like a kind of a form of hypnosis. I really think that a stand-up special, as good as they are, you're maybe getting 60 to 70 percent. [38:12] This summer, the Cup is taking over the U.S., and only DraftKings has you covered every step of the way. Follow every group stage upset, every knockout round thriller, every stoppage time moment that flips the whole tournament. Sweat all the big matches you love in real time with a seamless experience built for the world's biggest stage. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app. [38:42] with code rogan spend five bucks to get 200 in rewards within 21 days that's code rogan in partnership with draft kings the crown is yours gambling problem call 877-8-hope-and-wire text hope and why 467-369 21 and over new york only eligibility restrictions apply bonus bets expire seven days after issuance for additional terms and responsible gaming resources cdkng.co slash audio limited time offer

[39:09] This summer, the Cup is taking over the U.S., and only DraftKings has you covered every step of the way. Follow every group stage upset, every knockout round thriller, every stoppage time moment that flips the whole tournament. Sweat all the big matches you love in real time with a seamless experience built for the world's biggest stage. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app. Yes, that means you in New York. [39:39] With code ROGAN, spend $5 to get $200 in rewards within 21 days. That's code ROGAN in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours. [40:05] of the experience of actually being there. That's why I enjoy watching to see how different people make them. Because there's all different types. Yeah. You know, some are heavily edited, which always brings me out if there's a way to keep it so you feel like you're in the room. Right. You know, I remember it was Mr. Tambourine Man or the Chris Rock special where... [40:23] when he changed the tone of it and he started talking about jerking off to porn and how he became addicted to porn. And it was that great, uh, filmmaker who, uh, who's a comedian who does music. He did that thing during COVID when he was, uh, [40:36] in his house. [40:38] Bo Burnham. I think he directed it. And the camera just keeps going on, keeps going on. By the time you don't even realize it because you're hypnotized.

[40:46] You're right here on Chris Rock. And I think probably subconsciously, just thinking about it now, that's probably one of the things, because that's kind of the frame I used the whole time on Alex. Yeah. But I remember watching it going like, when the fuck did this become a close-up? [40:59] You know, but that's what that's what it was happening. So there was a synergy between the camera and what he was doing in the place. This made me feel like cinematically I was there and this is what he was doing, hypnotizing me. Right. And then the opposite of that was the special that Chris Rock did where he changed clothes. So he was doing a special where he filmed part of it in one place and another part of it in another place. [41:29] Begin a bit with one outfit on and then end a bit with a different outfit on. And you're like, whose idea was this? Yeah, because the minute you cut and edit in any way, even podcasts audio-wise – [41:41] That's the thing I've learned. Some people, they edit the audio of a podcast, and you're like, someone didn't take a breath before they answered. [41:48] Oh, like cutting out in between. Yeah. It's a whole other rhythm. Right. Well, that's the YouTube thing, right? YouTube for a long time was doing these things where they would cut out all the pauses in between people talking things. And it became like a style of editing. Right. Where it's like shocking. For my ears, it's impossible for me to get in. Right. It's just impossible. Well, it's the short attention span concept. Right. You're just saying people are so fucking stupid you can't give them any breaks. You can't give them any breath.

[42:18] and keep talking and then you know yeah and it's like after a while it's just like this wash and yeah [42:23] They're just trying to keep you engaged as much as possible by editing instead of by having actually interesting content. Compelling content. Yeah. But it's an interesting exercise. Yeah. I enjoy watching. Like I think Josh Safdie did Sandler's one and he did all this backstage and he walked up and then he was in many locations but he was playing music a lot. Yeah, I just like watching everybody's different sort of exploration of different stand-up shows because it's such a huge viable market. [42:53] People, you know, it's fun to watch how they do it. I think that's probably why, because I watched so many of them, I wanted to do it in a way in a movie. [43:00] Have you done stand-up at all? Never, never did it. Never? No. Have you thought about it? No. When you were doing the film, did you think about doing it? No, no. No? [43:08] Yeah, and I don't know why, Joe. Yeah. But no, it's not like one of those things that I feel... [43:15] compelled to do. Would it be fun? Would I be scared? All those things. Will I try and open mic one night? Yeah, I probably should. But I didn't feel compelled to do it. No. The problem would be if you did it and it went okay, you'd [43:31] But you're like, I think I could do better. And then you're gone. [43:36] You know me? I know everybody. It's kind of the same thing with all of us. Yeah, of course, dude. There's always a part of you like, I think I can do better. And the next thing you know, like, I got to leave. I got to go do a set. What the fuck are you doing? Dad, I haven't eaten dinner. No, no, no, no.

[43:52] It's like all artistic pursuits. They can become an obsession and they become an addiction and they become a part of you. [44:01] naturally goes towards that pathway of thinking about that thing all day. [44:05] Yeah, which I love. [44:07] Oh, it's great. It's a fun thing. I remember being 11 and watching The Elephant Man and knowing at that moment... [44:13] You okay? Yeah, I'm sweating. Knowing at that moment that like, oh, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. When you saw The Elephant Man? Really? Yeah, I remember. Why was it that movie? [44:23] I mean, I don't know. I mean, I've thought about it a lot, obviously. Um... [44:29] I heard it was David Lynch directed it. I remember the scene, Anthony Hopkins. I loved film. So I always loved film. My dad loved film. [44:36] But it wasn't like a conscious thing where I was like, this is it. [44:40] and i remember you know in my living room it's on the tv i saw all the movies on the tv you know i never saw apocalypse now in a movie theater godfather or anything loneliness as long as it's runner or you know none none none of it it was all on the television and um but i was watching the elephant man it was on hbo it came through philadelphia where i live comcast and they would show like it all the time and it was anthony hopkins coming in and he's seeing uh joseph merrick the [45:06] The way David Lynch shot it, you only see a shadow. And then Hopkins starts crying. And I don't know. I was just like, I was there in that cellar with him. And I was like, I forgot I was in the living room. [45:18] And then the whole movie was like that. And it came out, and I was like, I just want that.

[45:23] So was that like the first seed that was planted? Yeah, that was it. It was the first and only. I was 11. It was like, bam. It was like a shot. [45:32] There's a scene right here. [45:34] Yeah, it's right at this. This is it. [45:38] Look how young Anthony Hopkins looks. [45:40] Yeah, he was incredible. Stand up. Stand up! [45:47] Thank you. [45:52] Thank you. [45:54] Turn round. [45:55] Turn around. [45:56] Turn around! [45:59] Thank you. [46:00] Thank you. [46:02] *music* [46:05] *music* [46:09] - [46:13] . [46:18] you [46:18] *music* [46:22] you [46:23] you [46:24] Thank you. [46:25] Wow. [46:28] Wow. That was it. [46:32] Wow. [46:33] Thank you. [46:35] What is it like watching that now, thinking that that planted a seed, it changed your whole life? I'm like, well, first I thought, wasn't it a shadow? But that was before. And then I'm like, oh, yeah. And then, yeah. Then I was just in it. [46:46] Then all of a sudden I was there. Then I was like, is Joe in it? Does he know what I'm talking about? And then as my brain started going, the movie kept bringing me in it. Yeah. And then by the end, by that push in, I was like, I'm just watching this guy look at this thing for the first time. And then, fuck, look at this beast, Anthony Hopkins. I wonder what he was looking at when he was crying. I know.

[47:02] you know because you know pull that out of your eyeballs oh dude and I wrote so I went to grad school moved to New York wrote him a letter because our dean said somehow he knew him or he had the school I went to that I only got into because they let anybody in they did that show inside the actor's studio [47:22] Do you remember that on TV on Broadway? Yeah, I remember that show. And so our thesis was the show. [47:27] There was a class, but it was a class, like technically a class. [47:32] And so all these incredible people would come on and Anthony Hopkins was there and I was there for that. And then I wrote him a letter just telling him and I asked James Lipton. That was his name, the dean. And then, you know, I never heard from him ever. [47:50] You know, and now I know him, dude. Do you know what I'm saying? How weird. It's crazy. It's so weird, right? [47:57] I never get over that. Me neither. Ever. Ever. And there's some guys, I don't know if you feel this way too, but there's some guys, then they become your friends, but still... [48:09] I still feel a little bit of extra energy when I'm around them. It'll never go away. Yeah, for sure. It's crazy. For me, one of the big ones was Tarantino. Hanging out with Tarantino. It's so odd. Going to dinner with him. Yeah, it's crazy. Hanging out with him here. Him coming to the club. He'd come hang out in the green room. That's nuts. It's just weird. It's like, that's Quentin Tarantino. Yeah. [48:31] Yeah, and it never goes away. As close as you get, even when your brain's off, right? Because that's always the libnus. Is my brain off when I'm with the person? That's like when, like, okay. And even like Clint Eastwood, who I did American Sniper with.

[48:45] I mean, it was always Clint Eastwood. And I got to a point where my brain was off. [48:49] But still, I'm just like, what if my dad was alive? If my dad was alive, he would flip the fuck out. What was it like doing that scene with the fake baby? Was that weird? It's so funny. I was just talking about that two days ago, dude. And you know, I've come full circle. I actually think it's dope. Really? [49:08] I think it's fucking dope. Why? Because it's so just like, wow, look at these people fully invested. And it's a doll. [49:19] Are you kind of like moving the hand a little bit with your finger? I could tell you the whole thing, dude. So we had three sets of twins. [49:27] and uh clint likes to shoot fast which i loved and love and they were crying and they weren't ready and he was like you know what let's just uh let's put let's put the doll in and i was like okay i was like all right and and i have the doll and i remember and i made a joke on set and i was like i was like uh i just saved you 35 grand because i moved his his uh his hand with my thumb yeah you know like i saved visual effects like 50 grand like made a joke about it and then we got [49:57] doing the meeting, but, you know, everybody defers to the boss. I still remember being in a room, and I'm, like, at theater, we're watching, and they're like, okay, Clint, so we did this, and, you know, the tank has dirt on it, and, you know, whatever visual effects they had done. [50:11] We get to the baby. [50:13] I'm like, okay, Clint, this scene...

[50:16] and [50:17] It ends. And I'm literally behind Clint. I just see the back of his head. And I'm waiting for everybody to raise their hand. [50:24] Like, we've got to spend more money to make the kid real. And I think the kid had, like, two fingers, too. Like, they weren't even. It was like an AA. Yeah. Here it is. Yeah. That's it. That's me. I'm doing that. That's it. [50:37] But, dude, it's kind of dope. I love it now. I've come full circle. So, and I raise my hand. [50:44] And I was like, Clint, I just think that it's clear. [50:47] you know, that that's not a baby. And can we at least just find out what the cost would be? [50:54] And no one said anything. [50:56] And then I remember he was like... [50:58] I think we move on. Wow. And that was it, dude. And that was it. And I was like, okay, okay. And I remember talking to the other producer. I was like, this is going to come back. I was like, bro, this is going to come back to haunt us. And I remember he said, no, Bradley, you're too close to the movie. I was like, I don't think so, dude. No, everybody's like, he's moving his thumb. This is crazy. That's a rubber baby. Crazy, dude. There's another one, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's crazy. [51:28] human being. Is that [51:30] Is it different than a written character that has no physical body – [51:35] That you can kind of become who you think the words represent. Yeah. Yeah. [51:41] But when you're playing a guy like Chris Kyle, you're playing a human. Yeah. And you're trying to figure out a way to make it as realistic as possible, but...

[51:51] You're acting like, what is that like? I mean, the thing that just popped my head is the pressure. [51:57] is, it's like night and day. Because there are people... [52:02] that you have to [52:06] serve you know especially with Chris Kyle we started making that movie he was alive right [52:12] He got killed... [52:14] While he was still negotiating with Warner Brothers, I think we just closed his deal. And then he was murdered. [52:21] on February 2nd, I believe. And, uh, [52:23] And it was just like, whoa. And then, but in fact, we were like, now we really got to make this movie. [52:30] And, um... [52:32] And then Clint and I flew to Midlothian, Texas and met with his family and his widow and his parents and then the kids. And I did the Alpha Man. I did it as a play in my thesis in grad school. And then I did it at Williamstown. And I actually did it in New York and London. Even though it's a long time ago, that was the first time I felt that responsibility because I actually loved that guy, Joseph Merrick. And I felt that responsibility to him. So I had done something like that before. But this was the next time. [53:01] It was massive, Joe, but I think that it's like you're always looking for what's the fuel that's going to allow me to work as hard as I can. And the fuel when you're playing a real person is like there's like four extra canisters or like vats. [53:16] of firepower for you to work hard because you just, you know, you're looking across at the eyes of somebody and say, I'm going to serve your son or your husband or your father. It's a major responsibility. Maybe even more major because now he's deceased. Yeah.

[53:31] It was mind-blowing. [53:35] But it terrified me. And also, like, I'm 185 pounds at that point from northeast Philadelphia. This guy's from Midlothian, Texas, SEAL Team 3. [53:45] And the way Clint works, the way we did work, Kevin Lace, who was a SEAL Team 3 with Chris McClick. [53:53] was in the movie, played Dauber. Jacob Schick, who was one tribe, which is what I'm wearing, he was a Marine. Did you ever see American Sniper? Yes. There's that scene where he goes to the hospital and there's all the guys that have been wounded. Jacob Schick is one of them. So there's real guys. It's all real. So I step in. [54:09] You know, I've got to... [54:11] I'm going to die unless I believe I'm Chris. Right. So I have to do whatever I can so that I believe I'm Chris. If I believe I'm Chris, then I have a shot. [54:23] at everybody else potentially going along with this illusion. I just have to be absolutely fearless when I walked on set. So it just made me work so hard. [54:34] that I never worked hard, that if it's a created character [54:39] You know, it's different. But it comes with a different set of challenges. You know, it just depends on what it is. But I do know, and then with Leonard Bernstein, he did the same thing. Huge responsibility, like massive, that I felt. Right. To his kids. Right, right. To people that loved him. But mainly his kids. All three, his son has passed away since then. But his three kids are like, okay. You know, they're like handing you, you know, it's like if someone went to your daughter in 12 years and said, here's this movie about your father.

[55:06] Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You know, and this guy's sitting across and be like, OK, I'm going to play your father. That's just a whole other thing, because the truth is, like, if it's good. [55:17] It's going to last a long time. [55:19] And it's going to be a thing that marks their journey. So I'm a part of whatever little part of Chris's journey. So you give somebody the faith that whoever has the power to give to that artist. [55:32] It's just, you know. [55:33] So it just made me work, you know, like you just don't stop working. [55:37] To get to the point where you believe you're him. Or you believe that he's a part of you. Something's working. Did you meet Chris Kyle? Never. Just talked to him on the phone once. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. [55:47] So what did you – like what did you train? Oh, yeah. What did you do to try to like – Well, it's interesting, right? It's like I couldn't do anything that would ever achieve what he achieved, but it's like what can I do – [56:00] to look like a master. [56:02] So there's three weapons, the .338 Lapua, the .50 Cal, the rifle. It's like, what can I do? How much time do I have? I think I had like six months. [56:13] Also, luckily, we're the same shoe size, same age. He has a hole in his ear. I do. You find things that like, you know, same height. I was like, oh, this is great. And then I just like, but he's 230 pounds. So the first thing was 6,000 calories a day. Found a trainer. 6,000? Yeah, 6,000 calories a day. How did you force 6,000? First, I did it with real food. [56:34] And that was a big mistake because I couldn't get up. I remember the first week I did it, I had an incredible chef, and then I couldn't get up.

[56:43] I couldn't move my stomach. So then I think we split like half of it into protein shakes. [56:50] But it was still 6,000 calories. When you say you couldn't get up, like what do you mean? My stomach wasn't able to process that much food. [56:56] Yeah, whatever happened. Was this getting blocked? Getting blocked. Like major pain. Like I was giving birth or something, what I would imagine. [57:03] So then we'd change it and it would be like huge meal, shake. [57:07] Huge meal, shake. Worked out twice a day. I had three rest days, no cardio. It was all about strength training, and it was all focused around deadlifting. [57:18] Oh, okay. And it was this guy, Jason Walls, who I worked with. [57:21] And I did that, yes, it would be like Monday, 5.30 a.m., and then a 4.30 p.m., or like 3.30, Monday, Tuesday, rest Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, rest Saturday, Sunday. [57:33] And did that. And I got up to 238 pounds. And a lot of it was like, because I was thinking about him, his neck. So I came like, I would do all the neck stuff. [57:42] And it was his shoulders. Like I just wanted so you could shoot over and it's like, you know, which we did all the time in the movie where the guys just, you know, Chris. Yeah. NFL playoffs, let's go. DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NFL, makes every moment feel bigger. A running back cuts through the line. A strip sack flips the field. A tight end hauls in the kind of touchdown grab you'll talk about for years. Postseason games shift fast. And with DraftKings live betting options, you can stay right in the moment. [58:12] has your back with early exit protection. If the player in your eligible NFL prop bet goes down at any point in the first half, you still get paid in cash. New customers bet just $5, and if the bet wins, you get $300 in bonus bets instantly. DraftKings Sportsbook, every drive, every play, every moment, download the DraftKings Sportsbook app now and use the code ROGAN.

[58:42] if your bet wins. In partnership with DraftKings, the crown is yours. [59:12] gaming resources. See dkng.co slash audio. Limited time offer. How much weight did you gain? I went from 185 to 238. Whoa. And all naturally because I have cancers in my family. I've had skin cancer and like I'm terrified of anything. So I was like not going to do that. So you know. You did creatine or anything? I took creatine. Yeah. Which by the way I just started again like three months ago. [59:42] We do 100 push-ups a day, and if we don't, you have to pay $10 into a pool, and then when we get to 800, we go to Chinatown, and I'll have a meal with the money. And then I started taking creatine like two and a half months ago, and we just upped it to 150. I was like, this is – because I could only do – and we'd like YouTube the perfect push-up, which I didn't know, which is like a whole other world. And then now it's – I mean, creatine is incredible. It's incredible for your brain as well. I know. I've heard you say that. Like I can't tell that because I also take Zins all the time, so it's like I don't know what's doing it.

[1:00:12] Yeah, me too. [1:00:17] Yeah, where was I on the Chris thing? You were talking about gaining weight and how you did it. Oh, yeah. So then I worked with the guy who – so I was doing that in conjunction with learning about sniping and working with Kevin Lace, this guy, Dauber. We would go up to the Disney ranch and work with like 600-yard head targets. [1:00:33] prone that i would just do all the time and then we then once we cast the rest of the team we did all this stuff but really kevin lace this guy dauber was the guy because he was there and he was there through the whole shooting just so everything would be real and we just drilled it we became a group like you know we did the work but it wasn't so much about like i was like i have this amount of time good doing like seal boot camp will do nothing for me [1:00:55] Like that'll just give me the brain of like how hard this is and will I be broken? I've done this. Not that I couldn't have. Maybe I would have been broken, but I felt like I do understand that. [1:01:05] I've been through certain things where I understand what it's like to push myself to beyond my breaking point and what that looks like and feels like. What I don't know is when I'm looking at a target and I have to factor in the curve of the earth. [1:01:20] You know like that's the stuff I want to learn yeah So that's where I focus was those three weapons, you know live rounds and [1:01:28] gaining the weight so I felt like I was... [1:01:30] Here we go. We're back. [1:01:34] That's like all of a sudden you're like, oh, you didn't take the drug?

[1:01:39] You know what I'm saying? [1:01:42] No, I'm not on it. [1:01:45] And then so it was those two things in conjunction. The curve of the earth is nuts. I have to think about that. It's crazy. Long distance shots. And then the fact that these guys stayed up 24 hours and would pee in there. You know, never get up to pee. Just pee right there, right in the room. You know, I mean, I said no. [1:02:00] I mean, it's just, yeah, forget it. And then just working with this guy, Tim Monick on like his voice. To me, it's the voice is everything. It's all about the voice and like where he's from. And Chris was interesting because his accent started to change, you know, because he once he got out and then he did that. He did a couple of shows. You know, he wrote that book, which is how I came across and then gave it to Clint. So he had an interesting accent that kind of changed a little bit. But yeah, just the voice, just hitting the voice. [1:02:30] five days a week, you know, you know, and I had tons of stuff. [1:02:35] I had so much information that Taya Kyle had been so generous to give me. So many home videos, you know, correspondence. You know, I used to work out to his, which I just did the other day. It's so funny we're talking about this. I literally just did it two days ago. Worked out to his playlist. I had both of his workout playlists. Oh, wow. And I blew up two huge posters. And one was him just like this. [1:03:00] And with his gun. And I would do that and look at him every morning. It was just like this beautiful ritual that I felt like I was with him every day. How long did you take to prepare? I'd have to look back. I think I did it fast, but I think we had about six months or five months. But like, you know, full on, that's it, nothing else. I didn't have a kid back then. It was like, that was it.

[1:03:17] Yeah. [1:03:18] That's there's there's something very unique about someone doing a film about an actual person. Yeah, a great actor doing like De Niro when he played Jake LaMotta. Yeah, Raging Bull. Of course. Like that. That was one of the first one. I mean, he became a different person. Yeah. [1:03:36] Yeah, you have to. Yeah. You have to. There's like a merging of you and that whatever that idea or the soul or whatever of the person. It sounds so hokey. [1:03:45] You know, I get it. But if you ask me what my memory is of, of making a sniper, like memory, like on in scenes, [1:03:52] It's not that, like, I was acting. [1:03:56] It's just that's not my memory. [1:03:58] What is the memory? Of like, okay, now we're going to do this, and it's like me as him doing it. [1:04:04] wow you know that's that's that a mind fuck when you stop when like the movie well the good thing is you do a clint who takes the piss out of fucking everything oh does he so yes we would go to dinner at night and uh and i learned from christian bale in american hustle like he just stayed in because i didn't understand this stay in the character all the time you know you hear these stories but you don't know what the real is like how does that work you see a cell phone do you like lose your mind like how do you what is it how do you do it and it's like oh i overthought [1:04:34] played this character that's from New York in American Hustle. And I go in there. The first day I met him, he was his accent. And the rest of the movie, even like on weekends – [1:04:43] It was him, Christian, and we would talk about stuff and this kid, but he would just speak in that voice. And I was like, oh, it's that simple.

[1:04:51] Like, it's not some big thing. Like, once you get the voice. That is weird. You know, but I took it. I mean, and it's wonderful because then you feel like you're not acting and you're in the voice. And I do it all. So I would be in that voice of Chris for the whole movie. And then we would go to, like, a restaurant when we were, like, up in Lancaster shooting or something. And Clint would then make fun of me in my accent as Chris and order a steak. And it was just, it was great. Yeah. He's fucking sabotaging your performance. He's making you self-conscious. That's crazy. It was awesome. That's crazy. [1:05:21] I always wondered what it's like to be around someone who's like method. But I don't know. Method is also a term that – What does it mean? Well, the method – it started in Russia, right? And then that book on acting that I should know – [1:05:38] You know, what's his name? [1:05:41] He came and then the group theater started and it was like, you know, and all these people then disbanded and there's Harry Meisner and there's... [1:05:48] Yes, Stanislavski, exactly. And there was this other guy, Vok Tangoff, that also talked about every rehearsal. It's very interesting. And I read all this in grad school. And then the group theater came in. And then Ilya Kazan was a huge part of it becoming popular because you had this guy that was sweeping floors of the actor's studio and then started directing plays. And then all of a sudden, he's a huge movie director. And he's putting Marlon Brando, who's part of the actor's studio, starring in his movies.

[1:06:18] out. And so there's people that are dogmatic about it, about it's only using your, you know, you're substituting. So if I'm doing a scene with you, like you aren't you, you're my brother. [1:06:28] But it's evolved into, it's like what works for you. To me, it's like you use your own experience, plus your imagination, [1:06:36] You know, but that's the sort, that's the, you know, sort of a very layman's 50-second. [1:06:42] you know, [1:06:44] telling of what the origin of the method is. But I went to the actor's studio, which is based in the method. That's where I went to grad school. [1:06:51] Is it easier? And it's very valuable because I didn't know shit before that. I mean, I did a couple of plays at Georgetown. I didn't know any. I mean, I just loved acting, but I didn't do anything about it. I was terrified as a kid. Like we did this thing in high school where we had to... [1:07:05] As seniors, we would put on our show where we would make fun of our teachers. And I could do my Latin teacher, Mr. Burke. And I actually sang in it. And I was like, but I was terrified, Joe, for the whole year, sleepless nights for a year leading up to it. [1:07:17] That's how scared I was in public. I remember doing like a fifth grade presentation with the poster boards about Locke and Hobbes and the poster shaking so hard because I was so nervous. I was like, what's this fear thing? Isn't that weird? I know. But then in college, I did a couple of plays, but I still didn't know what I was doing, but I loved it. [1:07:35] And I was like little stuff. I was like Azalon, the server in Dangerous Liaisons. But I still remember like I closed the door in a rhythmic way and people laughed. And I remember I was like, ooh. [1:07:45] Oh, this feels good. And then and then so I applied to grad school there. And then all of a sudden, it was like I got a huge foundation of like what I could do, you know, that your insecurities are actually your attributes, your fears or stuff that you know, all this thing that you've you're a sensitive kid. This is all good stuff.

[1:08:04] And I never felt that way before about any of that. And I had this teacher, Elizabeth Kemp, who was incredible, who then passed away in my house years later. She got sick. Yes, crazy. Passed away in your house? Yeah, in Venice, California. She was sick, so we put her hospice there. But she was incredible. And she did this basic technique class. And it was the first time ever. Because I didn't grow up therapy or none of that was... [1:08:28] Even, you know, in the vicinity of talking about your feelings, you know, I love my dad, but I grew up in, you know, the 80s and 90s. [1:08:35] northeast Philadelphia with an Irish-Italian upbringing. [1:08:38] That wasn't... [1:08:40] part of the deal and um and then all of a sudden in grad school with other guys and women and we're like laying down and she wants us to go through an experience of loss and betrayal when we were children it's like what the fuck and actually i could take all that stuff i've been ashamed of and i could use it and bring it into art i don't know really clicked with me [1:08:58] in a huge way. [1:09:01] So, and I use it even to this day, all the movies I do, I always get the actors together and do like a workshop for a week that's based on dreams that she also taught me. And I just find it invaluable. Any way you can just, how can I just get to a place where we're just talking to each other and I don't, you know, [1:09:16] And then all this stuff I feel it's okay. [1:09:18] Right, right. Yeah. When you're doing a guy like Chris, it must also be kind of easier to keep the accent than to try to reestablish it right before every scene. You just said it. It's a logical thing. Yeah, that's it. It's a logical thing. The idea of me talking with an accent or even thinking that it's an accent because you don't think about it anymore.

[1:09:48] you. [1:09:50] and it happens to be the voice that I've been working on for however long time, then we're in it. We got a shot. Yeah. And if I'm stopping it, [1:09:56] There's no way I'm not thinking about... So yes, Joe, that is the reason. You know what's a really underappreciated talent is voice actors who do audiobooks. I was watching a video of this guy because I never knew how they did it, and I kind of assumed... [1:10:15] That whenever they had to change accents, they probably had a pause where they were. But there's a video of a guy doing the voiceover for Lord of the Rings, the Lord of the Rings audiobook. And he goes into Smeagol. He goes into the Gollum character while he's doing narration. There's no break. He just smoothly transitions into Smeagol. It's great. It's fucking incredible. It's nuts. It is absolutely masterful and completely underappreciated. Yeah, I agree with you. [1:10:45] Because if you watch this guy do it, I don't know the gentleman's name who's the voiceover actor, but – [1:10:50] I love audiobooks. That guy. Listen to this guy. [1:10:54] Oh, it's Andy Serkis. He was holding a debate with some other thought that used the same voice, but made it squeak and hiss. [1:11:04] "'A pale light and a green light.' [1:11:07] alternated in his eyes. [1:11:09] as he spoke. [1:11:13] Thank you. [1:11:15] It's me, you're premised.

[1:11:20] Said the first thought. [1:11:22] Yes. Yes, my precious. Cain the answer. Amazing. Fucking amazing. Like that, what a master. [1:11:36] And you're talking about a master actor. Yes. Yeah. You know, because he's been in a lot of movies. He's directed. He directed that great movie that was like Jungle Book, a version of Jungle Book that Christian Bale actually played the panther, I believe. He's incredible. And I got to meet him. He's like this guy's like a one off generational talent. [1:11:54] Yeah, he's insane. You have to be to be that good at voiceover acting. Yeah, and he's just a great actor. Yeah, you have to be. Yeah, I agree. My mother watches this. She'll kill me that I'm saying. My mother watches. First of all, she loves Turkish soap operas. Turkish soap operas? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why them specifically? I don't know. She graduated from Hallmark into Turkish soap operas. [1:12:21] The Hallmark channel. [1:12:24] And she's evolved even further. She just watches the screens. [1:12:28] where there's two people, AI images, and it's just a person telling a story. And I often I'll come down making breakfast because when she stays with me in New York, she has the room down there, and I'll be like making my daughter breakfast, and I could hear it, or I'll go to the bathroom, which is right next to her. And I was like, wow, these guys, these voices. I mean, the guy's carrying it all. It's just an image, and she'll watch it for hours. [1:12:48] And I'm like, what's going to happen? Is the firm going to hire him? Did she see the note? Like, it's amazing. I was like, yeah, it's really an art form.

[1:12:56] Turkish. Yeah. [1:12:58] I remember the first time I came down, I was like, oh, no, what happened? [1:13:02] Because I'm just hearing, I'm like, what happened? And I walk in and I'm like, Mom, what are you watching? She's like, oh, no, this guy's the best actor in the world. This guy. And so she just reads the subtitles. She did it for like, she's watched, it's called... [1:13:16] Oh, wow. [1:13:16] Thank you. [1:13:17] Uh... [1:13:19] If you look up... [1:13:22] He's a, what's it called? Circle? [1:13:26] Is it dove, bird, bird something? [1:13:32] How could I forget it? Oh, baby. Is that it? Early bird. Early bird? Oh, yeah. [1:13:38] explain this? So it's a soap opera. There's like 360 episodes. She's watched them all like five, four times. [1:13:47] And she'll come in. She'll like do a marathon session, come in to make some food. She's like, [1:13:52] This guy, just the way he moves. This guy's the best actor. That's him. That's him. [1:13:59] Yeah. [1:14:00] That's him. Is it speaking in Turkish? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me hear some of those. [1:14:06] This looks like... [1:14:08] Thank you. [1:14:08] Yeah, that's it. Yeah, there he is. [1:14:13] - - - - [1:14:15] Yeah, there he is. I did, uh... [1:14:17] And so she likes this and she does the voiceover, she reads the... No, so that was the middle stage. Now she's graduated to, it's different now where she just watches two AI images and it's a story. But she did this for a good like eight years. All through COVID. Why was she into this? I don't know. She must have come across it one day somewhere and then that was it. She just got hooked? Oh, I mean, hooked isn't even the word.

[1:14:43] Yeah. [1:14:44] By the way, it's pretty good. Is it? Yeah, yeah. You watch it? Yeah, yeah. [1:15:01] inventory and returns, warehouse systems, and comprehensive analytics all in one place, saving customers 15 hours per week on fulfillment. ShipStation compares rates across all major global carriers, including USPS, UPS, and FedEx, plus your own discounted rates if you have them. To find you the best shipping option on every order with discounts up to 90% off, there's a [1:15:31] Trust ShipStation. Try ShipStation free for 60 days with full access to all features, no credit card needed. Go to ShipStation.com and use the code JRE for 60 days free. 60 days gives you plenty of time to see exactly how much time and money you're saving on every shipment. That's ShipStation.com, code JRE. [1:15:55] This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. This summer, soccer is here, and the watch parties will be going back to back to back. But don't worry, Uber Eats has your game day essentials covered with 30% off all orders from Aldi, Kroger, and Dollar General. All the snacks and groceries to keep your crowd happy, delivered straight to your door like chips, dips, wings, guac, and fresh ingredients for the perfect game day spread.

[1:16:25] Locked in on the game, all the hosting, none of the hassle. Order now for 30% off your game day snacks and grocery order only on Uber Eats for a limited time. Offer eligible for 30% off entire order. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Offer valid through July 5th. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. [1:16:49] Yeah, he's great. And the woman in it is great, too. Yeah. Do you consume a lot of films? Do you watch a lot of acting? I watch a lot of everything. Yeah? I love television. [1:16:59] films. And then, you know, like eight months ago, I know I'm late to the game, came across podcasts. [1:17:07] Only eight months ago? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. What made you get into that? Yeah. [1:17:17] I can't remember, but it was your podcast, and I'm trying to think what it was. [1:17:21] And then it was like, oh, and then I came. And then, you know, once you watch something on your phone, it, like, suggests other things. And then you had two guys on that I thought were really interesting. And then they do a trigonometry. Yeah, trigonometry. And I find that very fascinating. Oh, they're great. Yeah, great. And so that's how it just started. So now it's, like, a huge part of, like, I have this whole little thing. Like, often I'll go to bed and my daughter's listening to your voice. But I do put on headphones sometimes because I love, like, just at the end of the day, listening or watching. I'll put it on the side table. [1:17:51] Yeah, podcasts are incredible. It's very soothing. [1:17:55] Very soothing.

[1:17:56] That's interesting. I hardly ever listen to them anymore. I used to listen to them all the time. I love TV. I take in a lot of content. Have you watched The Beast in Me on Netflix? I did. Holy shit, dude. [1:18:09] And that guy... [1:18:12] Kerry Russell's husband, Matthew Reese's [1:18:14] dude the the bad guy yeah yeah how fucking good is that guy so i did a movie with him years ago called burnt about a chef and we had never met and there's a scene where my character he was trying to get sober and he's he went off the wagon and he goes into this guy their old nemesis [1:18:31] They were nemesis with each other. [1:18:33] his restaurant at After Hours, [1:18:35] and um [1:18:36] It was like a pretty dark scene that we never met. [1:18:39] Me and this guy, this actor, right? [1:18:41] before we shot. [1:18:42] And I come in and then [1:18:44] I don't know what was it was pretty it was I was pretty locked in. [1:18:48] And there's one scene which wasn't really scripted, and I took, you know, those sous-vide bags. [1:18:52] and I put it over my head [1:18:54] to try to, cause he's trying to kill himself, which by the way, I was like, oh, this, this could work if I don't get help. Those things are strong and tight. And then we had this experience, Joe, where then he was ripping it off me. [1:19:09] Trying for me not to kill myself and I don't know him that well, but we had that's the thing about like making art together like I [1:19:16] Every time I see him, I've seen him maybe six times at certain things or something. [1:19:22] something i always feel like we're bonded forever just based on this one experience that we had and he's an incredible actor he's just and he and i the end of that show him in the end oh god dude and claire danes is like off the chart did you see that show she did with jesse eisenberg

[1:19:39] Um... [1:19:40] There's another series she did. Homeland? No, no, no. It was like Fleischman, something with Fleischman. Fleischman is in trouble? Yeah, Fleischman. No. Yeah, she's incredible in that, too. There's a scene where she's basically having a mental breakdown, and you're watching, and you're like, this can't be acting. Fleischman is in trouble. Yeah. Yeah. [1:19:59] It's on FX? [1:20:01] I never even heard of this. [1:20:02] It's really good? Yeah, I enjoyed it. And I enjoyed her at the end. There's one scene that really rocked me where I just fully... I mean, I just saw this movie Hamnet. I don't know if you guys saw that or not. No. [1:20:14] That's what I love about the movie. So Jesse Buckley in this movie. [1:20:18] It's basically playing like the most difficult role ever, the loss and all that stuff. And I fully, Joe, I'm watching and sitting there fully believing that this person is going through this. [1:20:30] Do you know what I mean? Yes. When you do that, when I believe that you're actually going through it, [1:20:35] I mean, that's it. That's, and like, her performance in that movie is so... She's so good, dude. Dude, dude. Are you talking about Claire Danes or Jesse Buckley now? Jesse, no. Claire Danes. Yeah. Claire Danes and Jesse Buckley. Yeah, they're both amazing. But Claire Danes is so good in The Beast and Me. There's moments where her fucking lips are trembling. No, no, it's nuts, dude. She's touched. Her eyes are darting back. She's on another level. Yeah, right. She's touched. She's touched, right? She's touched, yes. No question. [1:21:00] Yeah. No question. Yeah. Yeah. [1:21:02] She locks in in this very crazy way. She was great in fucking Homeland, too. Yeah, I never saw Homeland. Oh, it's great. It's really good. She just locks in.

[1:21:11] She locks in in this very strange way where you fucking 100% believe her. Yeah. Like believe it behind the eyes. It's the greatest. Yeah. I mean, that's the heroine for me in this industry. It's like when you're around and you're creating this thing and all of a sudden it's like, whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Holy shit, it's happening. But it's like I had this conversation with Ethan Hawke because I was asking him about. But I felt like that with Will, just real quick, you know, that vampire scene. Because I was operating it, right? I don't know how you felt watching it. [1:21:41] He was on stage. At the very end. Yes, yes, yes. I was like – [1:21:45] I fully believed it. Yes. And then when I went to the audience and they're just like, [1:21:50] Right. Because they didn't know what the fuck's going on. Right. [1:21:52] That was one of those moments I had on this movie where I was like, "Oh, my man is locked." Yeah. The fuck in. Oh, 100%. Yeah, 100%. It was very uncomfortable for me. You felt that. Yes. Oh, good. Definitely. I have this conversation with Ethan Hawke about that. I go, "What is happening when I believe someone?" I was talking about the scene in that movie with him and Julia Roberts about the end of the world. Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. There's a scene with him and Kevin Bacon. [1:22:21] Yeah, when they go to the house. Yes. And also there's three guys in that scene. [1:22:25] Oh, my God. He's amazing. Yeah, from Moonlight, he's been in tons of stuff. [1:22:29] Green Book. [1:22:32] I know him. Yeah, Jamie will pull it up. [1:22:34] I can't, I'll fuck his name if I pronounce it. [1:22:38] What is it? Sorry, I want my mic working.

[1:22:42] Oh, it's a Mahershala Ali. That's it. Mahershala Ali. Mahershala Ali. Yes. [1:22:47] And... [1:22:48] I believe it. I know that's Kevin Bacon. I know that's Ethan Hawke. I believe he's going to shoot him. Yeah, no question. I believe it. I go, what is that? What is going on? I go, because it's almost like a form of hypnosis. And he's like, yes. You have to actually be there. You have to actually be there. Like, yeah, you're saying the lines you're supposed to say. But what's happening is like you really are there. You really believe it. [1:23:18] it. And we've all been there before. Like one time, [1:23:20] I ate an edible, and I went to go see one of those Marvel movies. And in the middle, I was really high. Right. And while I was watching the movie, I was like, this guy's acting. [1:23:32] You know, it just made, you know, when you're really sensitive and tuned in. I get angry because I'm like, I want to go on the ride. I'm like the best watcher because when that thing starts, I want to go on the ride. I want to go on the ride. Yes. Yes. [1:23:45] Like him and Denzel in Training Day. Yeah. Like that – there's a few scenes where you're like, okay, this is really – Oh, yeah. This is happening. In the car. Yes. That's the one. Oh, yeah. This is really happening. Yes. Like this is real. Yeah. Even Hawk's so good in that movie. Yeah. He's great. Yeah, he's great in everything. But he's sick in that movie. But he's also – when you talk to him, you realize, okay, this is an – [1:24:07] actual artist. Yeah, he's a unique dude. Yeah. He's not a guy trying to be a movie star. He's an artist that does movies. Yeah, but I don't know how many people, I don't know. It's like how many comedians who just want to be famous are going to love it. I don't even know how you could do it. You have to love it. It's just too hard. That's not enough of a fuel.

[1:24:26] It's not That's just not enough fuel It won't take you far enough It's just not enough fuel to keep doing it Right [1:24:32] Because if you don't love it, I think you would find it monotonous and maybe boring and tedious and inconsequential. You're going on a road trip with an eighth of a tank of gas. [1:24:42] You're not going to make it. You're not going to make it. You're stomping on the gas and trying to pull out of the parking lot, but it's not that. Yeah. It's a long... [1:24:48] And my experience in the 26 years I've been in this is like most of the people, if not all that I've worked with, they love it. [1:24:55] Yes. They love it. They have to. Otherwise, yeah. If you want to be great at something, you have to love it. Yeah. I can't imagine. [1:25:02] Because it's not even that you want – yes, you want to be great at it, but you just love doing it. Right. That's it. [1:25:07] Right. And the love is how it becomes great. And then the fear is when you get famous or people get popular early, that can be confusing because you start to have like... [1:25:19] I have to maintain a certain you start getting careful like I was thinking about when you said like what is that thing when it just it's hypnosis. The key to that is. [1:25:28] willing to fail that's what i learned as an actor is like oh yeah just don't take it too seriously [1:25:34] Here we go, we're rolling the camera Let's just, here, let's see what happens I'm going to go out on a limb, maybe it won't work But like, yeah, be willing to like Completely fail [1:25:45] And the minute you do that, it's like, oh, and all of a sudden there's this reservoir. [1:25:51] of space in your head and your soul to actually... [1:25:55] create even more of an imaginary circumstances. Now, if you haven't done your work, you're fucked anyway. But like, but once you're there, it's like once you're like, Oh, yeah, everybody, we could just fail. Let's just let's just fail. How do you make sense? 100% makes sense. It makes sense. Because the only way you're going to really find out what it is, is to like, try it all kinds of ways. Yes.

[1:26:14] Yeah. [1:26:15] I was just having the conversation, you know, Brian Callen, our mutual friend, he texted me last night. He's like, I got a new bit and I just ate a dick. I have to go up on stage with it tonight. It's fucking terrible. He goes, but I know there's something in there. And we were talking on the phone right before the show. He's like, dude, my fucking new bitch is bombed. It ate dick last night. I don't know what to do. But I know there's something there. It's like you've got to be willing to bomb. [1:26:40] You've got to be willing to eat a dick. If you don't, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. If you're careful, it's over. You can't. [1:26:47] Careful is death. I talked to Chris Rock once, and he told me that that bit that he did was one of his all-time classic bits. I love black people. I hate N-word. Right, right. He goes, that bit. [1:26:58] bombed for like a year. He couldn't get it to work. He's like, I know there's something in there, but I have to find it. And it took a fucking year. [1:27:09] And we're talking about a year of going up at the store, going up at the improv, going here, going to the laugh factor, going here, going there. Fuck. Pulling your hair out. Fuck. Trying to figure it out. A fucking year, man. And when you're Chris Rock, you're already Chris Rock. And you could talk about getting your dick sucked. You could talk about something. People will laugh. And you're like, I think there's something here. I got to grind this fucking thing down until I get an edge to it. [1:27:37] And it took them a year. Yeah. Like you have to be willing to fuck around. And to suffer through all that. Yeah. And enjoy the suffering. You start to like, once you do it enough, fail enough in front of people.

[1:27:49] it starts to be easier. Yeah. And then you come out on the other end. You're like, yeah. And I'm still alive. I'm still alive. Yeah. This wasn't as big as I thought. No. And then you have to do it again. That's and then you put out a special. And then once you put out a special, you start from scratch. And then you're fucking terrified. Because now you're a famous comedian with no material, or terrible material, and you have to figure out a way to make it good. And that plays into what I was talking about, like when you have when you've achieved something, and then there's that [1:28:16] pressure you put on yourself that it has to be that good or better. Right. And then all of a sudden you're in a different game than just like the doing. [1:28:25] Well, the play-it-safe game is the scariest game. Or somehow think that it's somehow that controllable. Because really all this stuff we're talking about, it's really kind of out of our control. [1:28:36] You know, when it's working, I don't feel in control at all. Right. You feel like a passenger. Yeah. [1:28:42] And that's, by the way, that's the high. There's nothing fun about controlling everything. There's no fun in that. But when you're like, whoa, wait a second. What's happening? The zone is being a passenger. Yeah. It's like being an observer of something. Sports, too. I think it works in every field. It's like they talk about it. It's like, yeah, that's it. That's it. And it just takes a ton, a year of doing the thing. Because there are moments that I can even think of where – because you do think, that's okay. It doesn't matter. There are a couple where, like, actually – [1:29:10] If this moment doesn't work out, like it may not be over, but you're definitely going to go down along the ladder. Yes. You know, and it's like, okay, and that's that pressure. Yeah.

[1:29:20] you know yeah [1:29:21] You got to love it. How do you pick a project? How do you decide what you want to do? And how much time do you spend deliberating on it? [1:29:30] Mmm. [1:29:32] Because you're in a unique position where you can do a lot of things. Yeah. You can kind of do whatever you want. So it's like what gets your juices going? Like how do you decide? [1:29:43] what to do. It's all about something igniting in me that, like, for example... [1:29:51] When I was little, I thought, like, I was obsessed with Vietnam. Vietnam. [1:29:55] I was obsessed as a kid. Vietnam, the war in Vietnam. And my math teacher was a recon in Vietnam, Bill Calm. And I was like obsessed with this guy. And he was fascinating, fascinating. He was a pole vaulter. And that was his cue for the chalkboard was a broken – one of his broken – [1:30:13] pole vault sticks. Oh, wow. And he would always, and he always wore sweatpants and he would lean against the thing. So all day long, half of his sweatpants would be full of chalk. And he would always smoke cigarettes on the athletic field and stand on the bench. [1:30:29] And so he'd always be perched there. And like my dad, he would never put out his butts. He would always save them. [1:30:34] So he always smelled like tobacco in his hands. [1:30:38] And then this other guy, his father came and talked about this book, Guns Up, which is an incredible book about machine gunner in Vietnam. And then I asked my dad if I could go to the military academy. Like I would do something and then like –

[1:30:50] Thin Red Line destroyed me. The Terrence Malick movie and Apocalypse Now I was like obsessed with and all these films. [1:30:58] And so I always wanted to do something about playing. I always felt like I had a love enough and an interest enough that playing a soldier would be something that I felt like I had a reservoir. So that led me to Chris. [1:31:09] that was that um it's all specific things it was just joseph merrick you know the elephant man like when i was i had no money and i took it i got a one i'm tower air went to london uh and like tracked his his steps at hospital road and where he went out just because i was obsessed with this guy joseph merrick the elephant man and then it wound up you know then making it you know doing the play at broadway where they originated you know and then um um [1:31:35] Stars Born was really about [1:31:37] I just love – I always wanted to direct. I don't think I dreamt that big. But I really realized what I loved about the process of the industry is the making of it. I never felt like I fit in. [1:31:49] just acting. I never felt like I thought... Like at the first... Like you, I went to LA with a job. [1:31:55] Like I went to grad school in New York. I thought I'd just be a theater actor if I was lucky if I could make a living as an actor. I this is a home run. My dad was terrified because he came from North Philadelphia only got to come out of the neighborhood kind of there were a couple other guys, but then he became a stockbroker. [1:32:09] and then his son's going to do acting and be 70 grand in debt in grad school. You know, Fannie Mae, thank God. But like, you know, and I didn't know I was going to pay it off. But that said, we grew up like upper middle class. But still, I was like, I'm paying for grad school. I took a loan out. And then so he was terrified. And then I got a job on this show, Alias, that brought me to L.A. But the minute I got there, I didn't know anything about it. Check the gate. I did nothing. You know what I mean? I did nothing. I just loved movies. And so I was obsessed, Joe. Obsessed.

[1:32:39] I would go in the editing room, and I found out very hard when I went there. I got very depressed. I was like, this is high school all over again. Me too. That's exactly how I felt. I was like, what the – I mean, I couldn't – I went to grad school. I'm in New York City. There's guys that I can relate to and talk about movies. I was in heaven. Then I get this job that I think is going to be the holy grail, and I'm miserable. Living in the first floor of this woman's house, just like – [1:33:05] It was crazy. I was like, I didn't know I could be this depressed. I mean depressed. Like I need water. And like the idea of going to the Rite Aid on Sunset and Fairfax was like too much. Yeah. And yeah, that was rough. It's depressing. Yeah. When you first go, especially when you're in that cold, weird environment of people. And no one, just no. And I was on a show that was awesome and everybody's exploding and like no one. It was like, who's this guy? [1:33:35] No. [1:33:35] I'm just like, [1:33:36] you know, a ghost. Right, right. So there's that. So your insecurity is just, you know, exempt is just, you know, astronomical. It was for me, it was also one of the first times that I ever moved somewhere where I didn't know anyone. Me too. I knew nobody. JJ Abrams hired me. And, and then Berkey, this guy was the only guy that I knew that he introduced me to. And then I met Jennifer Garner was like the second person I met. And then, yeah, I didn't know anybody. It's weird. [1:34:02] Yeah. I remember I was on the set of the show. Brian Klugman. I didn't know that guy who's like one of my best friends. You know, Brian Klugman. No, I know who he is, though. Yeah. He's we grew up since we were like nine. Oh, wow. Yeah. I was on the set of the show and a girl gave me a hug and I realized no one had touched me in weeks. And the hug she gave me, I was like, oh, it was like my battery got recharged. Like I didn't realize I needed a hug. Yeah. People say, do you need a hug? Yeah.

[1:34:31] Like, I never thought, like, nobody needs a hug. Right. No, I fucking needed a hug. I was very similar. She's like, give me a hug. She hugged me. I was like, oh, thank you. Yeah. I felt so good. It's weird. It's a weird feeling. It's a hell of a place to go. Oh, it is like, wow. Yeah. Yeah. I had a hard time. Well, the whole environment of L.A. is... [1:34:52] is so strange because you have – [1:34:55] The primary industry, if it's not the primary industry, it's most certainly driving all other industries, is a bunch of people trying to make it. [1:35:06] right? So it's a bunch of people with a hole in their soul. They need to fill up with other people's attention. And they're coming there to try to get attention. They're trying to come in there to try to make it. And, [1:35:17] The one thing that they have to do is audition. So you have to try to be accepted by someone. So you'd be judged. You go in there and you get rejected over and over and over again, which just fuels the same need that's inside you. It makes it even worse. [1:35:37] And everybody's concentrating on this one thing, like trying to get success. And then you realize, like, oh, my doctor wanted to be an actor. Oh, the waiter's an actor. Like, everyone's trying to do this thing where you have to get chosen. So then people calculate how they behave and talk and what their political philosophy is and their life philosophy is based on becoming ingratiating themselves with casting directors and with executives, like getting these people to like you.

[1:36:07] And then these people realize that. So they have like – they're controlling the twigs that work the puppet strings. And it just becomes this very strange environment of a complete lack of any like real critical thinking and any real – [1:36:24] Like embracing any alternative perspectives on things. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. When you're looking to hire, you consider someone's skills, experience, availability. But even more important than that is someone's enthusiasm. They should want to be there. Finding the right kind of motivation isn't as tough as you think. You just need ZipRecruiter. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. [1:36:54] ZipRecruiter connects you with qualified candidates instantly, and their latest feature puts the most interested ones at the top of your list, so you can make sure you're speaking with the right people at the start. [1:37:24] That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

[1:37:43] sink your teeth into them, Goldbelly will ship them to you anywhere. [1:37:49] And you've heard me talk about Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles from L.A. Man, now you don't have to sit in L.A. traffic to get some of that chicken. Just order on Gold Belly. So ship, Dad, something awesome from the most iconic restaurants across the USA. Go to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with the promo code ROGAN. That's goldbelly.com, promo code ROGAN. And it's just trying to align their stars correctly so that they can make it. I mean, that was weird. [1:38:19] My experience was more because I went there with a job. [1:38:22] Right. Right. And, you know, New York for me, I don't know, I went on 2,000 auditions, right? [1:38:27] I remember when I first booked a job with Sex and the City, I booked some commercials and extra work, which was great. But the first job I booked, I remember I was terrified because I got to the point where I was a doorman in a hotel and I would audition. And that was a great life. [1:38:41] And if I got a call back, it was great. But then when I had to do it, I remember literally like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I have to do it. Like, wait, wait, what? I'm actually working? I actually have to do it? What was it? What was the first thing you had to do? I played Jake the downtown smoker in the Sex and the City with Sarah Jessica Parker. And I couldn't drive standard. I never learned how to drive standard. So they sent me to Odell's driving school. And all I thought about was like, don't have her head hit the dashboard when we pull into the corner. And I still messed it up. And they had another guy do it. And then I just had to do this thing. You know, when the camera's here and you go. [1:39:09] You okay? You know, like you're pulling in. But I worked so hard on it. No, but LA for me, it was, I think it, for me at least, was the geography. Going from New York City where, you know, you can go to Bar 6, which is on 6th Avenue. No matter who you are, you go with a couple friends, like you just feel like you're in a...

[1:39:30] cool place or a place that's vibrant. LA, it's like, if I wasn't at work... [1:39:35] I was in that first floor of the house or my car, rental car. Yes. And that was it. And the world, which I could feel because I was seeing posters everywhere and billboards, which I had never been except for driving to Atlantic City and seeing who was going to – [1:39:53] going to be, you know, as a residency, that it was really the stimulus, the stimuli of that city aesthetically and how compartmentalized it is. So what I felt like, like it's, if you're not in, you're out. Right. And I just remember thinking like some, somebody somewhere in this town is having a ball right now. And it's not me. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And then that just leads to how can I cope? Right. [1:40:20] You know, and like, you know, not getting into bars, clubs, you know, and like girls not really looking at you, you know, and all that stuff. And all of a sudden it's like seventh grade and I'm 25 years old. [1:40:32] And it's like, and I should be happy because I paid by the end of this year, I'm going to pay off my student loan. But I'm fucking miserable. And what's wrong with me? You know, but to me, it was the geography of it. [1:40:44] New York City is so wonderful because no matter what you're thinking, like when I did The Elephant Man, I would take the subway to 42nd Street and my preparation for the play was getting off the subway, going to the theater because the amount of thousands of people... [1:40:58] That are forcing me to be present. Yes. It was wonderful. It was like doing a 12-minute relaxation because you're just – it's life. And you're like, whew, get through. And then by the time you get to this theater, you're like, okay.

[1:41:11] But L.A., it's like you're in your car, in the thing. You pull up to the studio. [1:41:16] the thing, you walk, and then all of a sudden it's like, okay, here we go. And you're like, okay, hold on a second. [1:41:22] Yeah, that thing that New York has that L.A. doesn't have is all walks of life. [1:41:30] are all intertwined. You're walking down the street together. There's a billionaire and a homeless guy and a fucking, you know, ne'er-do-well and an office worker. And everyone's walking to where they go and they walk into restaurants and they get in cabs and they get on the subway and everybody intermingles. We're in LA. Yeah. [1:41:49] It's you get in your car, you drive to a place, and then you go to your house, and you don't ever walk around. And if some weird interaction happened on set or someone said something, you're like, oh, then you're just a home thinking about it. Right. Do you know what I mean? There's no like, well, I went on and did this after that. And I actually took up golf, which is crazy. And I would play it. Malibu had this public golf course, and I was like, I'll do something because I'm an early morning. I wake up early. I've always had. So I'm up at like 530. Yeah. [1:42:19] And so I did like a 647 tea time with these two guys. And that was actually nice. I did that for six months and I would play. But like you just try to find something that, you know, I just need to interact and do something else. Something that makes you human. Yeah. For me, I went to pool halls. But I have to say, like, I do love – oh, interesting. Yeah. Michael Vartan, who was on Alias, huge. Did you ever play pool with him? No. Oh, he was – he would go all the time. No kidding. Yeah. Oh, I wish I met him. Yeah. He would go all the time. Yeah, to that one place that had like tons of –

[1:42:48] I'm sure you know it. Probably Hollywood Billiards. Maybe, yeah. Yeah, Hollywood Billiards was the spot. Yeah. Yeah. [1:42:54] Yeah, in New York, that was a big thing for me, too. It almost hijacked my comedy career because I was playing pool like eight hours a day. I was playing in tournaments. I was traveling around and going to tournaments. And when I came to L.A., that was one of the few things that made sense to me. Like, oh, I get it. Pool players. I know pool players. I hang out with them. They're normal people. That's a great asset you had there. [1:43:16] So having something like that, martial arts was always like that. Huge. Having something where you have something that you do. Because if I was only doing acting, I'd go crazy. And I went there and I fell in love with the movie making, getting back to my original part. And I would go and so I'd ask J.J. Abrams if I could sit in the editing rooms. So I would basically shoot my one scene a week, which was like, hey, how was your trip, Sidney? You know, I didn't have a big part. Right. But I would spend the rest of the day in the editing rooms. [1:43:46] shadow him and just be around all the time. And I would take everybody's dailies home. Back then it was in VHS tapes. It was Carl Lumley, Victor Garber, Ron Rifkin, all these great... [1:43:55] Victor and Ron were from New York, these great New York actors that came out, and I would just watch their dailies and learn. [1:44:02] You know, just learn. And that's when I was like, I love this. Like, I fucking love this. [1:44:08] love this. That's what I love. I love when people love things. Yeah. And I do, man. Like I can't get enough of it [1:44:15] I am 100% fascinated with people that love what they do. I can watch people make furniture. There's a guy that I watch on YouTube who just makes desks and tables out of like – what is it called? Live – what is it called when they take it and it has the actual outline of the wood? Yeah.

[1:44:35] What is it called? They take slabs. He takes like slabs of walnut and makes these tables and he narrates while he's building it and describes the process of it and how he's trying to precisely align all these joints and these, you know, he's like he's got pegs and holes. Yeah, it's the best. Slide it into play. Live edge slab. That's it. Live edge. That's the other great thing about what I get to do. So you do a movie like Sniper and you get to be with these people who have dedicated their lives to this thing and you're watching them do it. [1:45:05] orchestra, each person, since they were four, [1:45:10] have been doing this. And they're all unicorns. Do you know what I mean? And stars born. All these musicians. It's like even burn. I got to go to these restaurants and study under these people. I mean, that's the thing that's like, [1:45:21] That's the greatest thing in the world. Yeah. It's nuts. It's nuts. And like even this movie, the access I got to have to the cellar and all the stuff and all the people. It was like I learned so much more than I ever knew. [1:45:33] Well, it expands you as a human. Oh, no question. You know more about what it is to be a human. Like, oh, there's a human who just plays the flute. Yeah. You know, we were talking in the green room last night about Andre 3000. Was that what was the name? Yeah. I'm saying it right. I almost said 5000, but that's wrong. Andre 3000 from Outcast. He plays the flute now. That's all he does. He plays the flute. Like a friend of mine ran into him in downtown in Colorado.

[1:46:03] walking around with his flute. [1:46:05] And no one was bothering him. And he's like, holy shit. He's just fucking playing the flute. Yeah. That's a guy who loves what he does. Just, I mean, apparently he made an entire album of... [1:46:15] Well, he just plays the flute. Yeah. Yeah. [1:46:17] And he's just like not into doing anything else. Yeah. Just into like being an artist and playing the flute. Yeah. Yeah. [1:46:24] It's dope. Right. Yeah. It's like, fuck, I wish I was that guy. But you seem to be. I mean, you did, you know, hunting and billiards and already you've got like two up on most people besides what you already do. [1:46:37] But I do things that... [1:46:39] are – that I think are going to – [1:46:42] Ex- [1:46:43] help [1:46:44] Let me figure out who I am. And I think the only way you really figure out who you are is to do difficult things. Yeah. And when you're doing difficult things, you kind of learn about yourself. You learn about, oh, why do I have this desire to take a shortcut? Why don't I do it the right way? Like what is it about getting good at something? I think me at my base, I'm very lazy. Yeah. [1:47:07] I think everybody is. I mean. It's a default setting. Yeah. No question. Default setting for humans. Goggins talks about it. Yeah. Like, Goggins talks about, like, one of the things about Goggins is he always talks about how when he was fat and lazy. Yeah. [1:47:19] Like he used to be fat and lazy. Now he's like the most disciplined human that's ever lived. And he forced himself to become that. But he's default. So he goes, he goes, he goes, even now, he goes, sometimes I look in my shoes for like a half hour before foot pulls motherfuckers on. Yeah. I mean, I'll be doing something during the day and I'm like, I can't wait till my daughter's in bed and I'm upstairs and I'm just laying down on the couch and I'm just whatever's on. Yeah. And that's my goal for the day. I'm like, what's going on here? Sometimes that's good, though. Yeah.

[1:47:49] I think it's important to just sit and reset. I enjoy it. Yeah, I don't kill myself over it, but I do recognize. [1:47:56] That there is a feeling. But then I look at, you know, I look at the sort of landscape. I'm like, well, it's hard for me to categorize myself as lazy if I just look at the facts. Yeah. You know, but I do feel, and it's what you're saying, it's that default setting. [1:48:09] But I think with everybody, it's like normal for human beings to seek comfort because it's difficult to acquire, especially in tribal societies. Back when we were just hunter and gatherers and just trying to figure out how to stay alive. Like the idea of relaxation was impossible. Yeah. And if you could get there. There's no time. Oh, that's what I want. I want to stop chasing antelope. Just fucking take a nap. [1:48:39] But it just takes a lot of work. You know, a lot of over and over. But the true high is when you're doing these things where it first started out and you were horrible at it. And then all of a sudden, you're going out on a hunt or whatever. And you're like... [1:48:53] I'm relaxed. [1:48:55] I've never relaxed on a hunt. [1:48:57] Well, I've never hunted, so I can't relate to that. It's not a relaxing thing. I mean, it is a fulfilling and enriching thing. I think I mean physically relaxed. Like, your body's not tense. Because the one thing I do, you can't shoot a gun if you're tense. Right. Impossible to hit what you want. Right. That's the beautiful thing about shooting is, like, you know, on the exhale and stop. Like, all that stuff, I was like, oh, this is – I had no idea. Right. Because the first couple times, I was like, just shoot it. See how you do.

[1:49:27] A lot of these guys are shooting a mile. No, it's nuts. It's nuts. [1:49:30] I remember the first couple of times with no training. I mean, it wasn't even near the target. [1:49:37] I was like, oh, yeah, this is a whole. And all you're doing is this. That's it. It is squeezing a trigger. And how much is involved in that, like the synchronization of the mind, the eyes, the breathing. But even the recoil, I remember the first time I didn't have my boot. I was like my boot was up and not like that. [1:49:54] and they didn't say anything, you know, and then the recoil through my shoulder down to that. I was like, oh, yeah, now I understand why you do that. [1:50:00] is that it all just goes out. [1:50:02] All those things. It's like, wow. [1:50:04] But I think through those things, you learn more about who you are. [1:50:09] Through difficult things and getting better at difficult things, that's where you learn more about who you are. And you realize like, oh, I can kind of apply this mindset to everything. And you see with your children. Uh-huh. Oh, yeah. My daughter who loves to draw. If she sees somebody who's drawing. I have a daughter that loves to draw, too. She's really talented. So I bet if my daughter drew with your daughter, she would stop because she would see how good she is. And she gets so frustrated. This just happened the other day. And, you know, and she'll just rip up what she's doing, which is wonderful. I have it right here. [1:50:39] I saved this. I was like, don't rip it up. She did this yesterday, and I was like, don't rip it up. I'm going to make it my bookmark. Ah, that's cool. But I watch her process of dealing with... [1:50:50] difficulty and and it's like and just trying to explain like it's it's okay [1:50:55] And being frustrated is okay. But I could see myself in her and what everybody goes through. But isn't that awesome when you're watching your kid go through these things? Yeah. It's just the greatest thing in the world. It's awesome watching people get obsessed with things and then progressing. Oh, yes. And when it's your own child, it's even more insane. It's amazing. Yeah. It's amazing. It is cool. Yeah.

[1:51:15] Like Cartwheel. Took her forever to learn it, but now she can do it. And I was like, you just keep at it. [1:51:19] Yeah, yeah. [1:51:20] It's – [1:51:22] learning [1:51:23] through someone else's eyes that happens to be your child is one of the most magical things ever. [1:51:29] It's magical. [1:51:32] It's it, man. Yeah. It's it? It's a different kind of happiness. Oh, yeah, one that I never knew I was capable of. [1:51:39] I'm so glad I had kids late because I'm 51. I just turned 51 a couple of days ago. And I had my daughter's eight can be nine in March. And like, I just got lucky that I was able to be in a place in my career that I could choose, like you said, what I do and work from home and just. [1:51:55] I'm just there for all of it. And it's awesome. As much as I love the heroin of being in the moment, [1:52:01] you know, in acting and a great shot or whatever you're doing and everything's together. [1:52:05] There's like seven of those every day. [1:52:07] With your kid. Right. Like seven. We were eating dinner last night at a restaurant. And by the way, she was so excited I'm coming here because she hears all that. I was like, daddy tomorrow. But we're sitting here in a restaurant and I'm just looking at her and she's got a little hat on. And I was like, this is the, and I'm like, isn't this the greatest thing in the world? [1:52:23] And she's like, yeah, it's the greatest. And I'm like, that's it. That's it. That's it. That's crazy. It's like free jolts. Yeah. Right? You just get these free jolts. And you never know when they're going to come. Right. It's like walking up the stairs together. It's not like in the moment. Like, it just happens. It's the best. Yeah. It's a very different experience. And I feel bad for people that never get to feel it. It's one of the few things. Like, I don't think everyone should have children. And I'm not that guy that says. Yeah, me neither.

[1:52:53] have kids, you don't have a life. I don't believe that. Everybody's different. Everybody's different. And I think we all need to respect that. Everyone's different. But... [1:53:03] Man, for me... [1:53:05] I... [1:53:06] shudder at the thought of being who I am right now if I had no children. I don't know if I'd be alive. [1:53:12] I would be different. That's for sure. Yeah, I don't know. I wouldn't be nearly as compassionate. Dave Chappelle said something to me once that was brilliant. He said, not only has having children changed the amount of love I have, he goes, it's changed my capacity for love. Yes. I'm like, ooh. And understanding. Everything. Everything. There's like before and after. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's true, all the things they say. Oh, yeah. This is true. It is true. Yeah. There's no doubt about it. It also made me think of everyone as a baby. Yeah. [1:53:40] I used to think of people as static. I used to think I meet Bradley Cooper. He's 51. That's a 51-year-old guy. But when I had children and raised children, you start saying, oh, this is a baby that became a person. And it's just life experiences, genetics, environment, all these different factors. [1:54:02] Here you are now. [1:54:03] But you are a product of this path and this journey that you've taken through life. And I give people way more grace because of that. I give them way more charitable, way more compassionate, way more understanding of even people that suck. When I meet someone that sucks, I'm like, ugh. [1:54:23] I wish I could have met them when they were five and see what it was and maybe help them. It's hard for me to hate people. That is –

[1:54:31] not served me so well over the years but ultimately it has but yeah it's hard for me not to um [1:54:39] feel just any other human being how hard it is to be alive. [1:54:43] Right. It is. There's just like, I don't know. I think it was hardwired in me. It has nothing to do with like anything. Just like, yeah, it's hard for me to, even people that are like mean to me, you know. [1:54:55] It's hard for me to like... [1:54:57] Stay mad at them. Yeah. [1:55:00] My wife said something the other night. As I get older. As you get older. Yeah. Yes. When you're young, it's like, fuck that guy. No, yeah, yeah. I'll never forget it. [1:55:06] Yeah, yeah. I'm going to remember that. Yeah. I saw your true face. Yeah, yeah, it's true. But yeah, as I get older... [1:55:13] Oh, no question. My daughter was talking about some horrible story in the news of someone who fucked up their whole life and all these different things. And my wife listens to her and goes... [1:55:23] . [1:55:25] It's hard to be a person. Yeah, man. It's hard to be a person. Being a person is hard. We were all just sitting there like nodding our head like, yeah, yeah, you can fuck this up. And we're all going to fuck it up at one point in time. And maybe when you think that you're never going to fuck it up again, you fuck it up the worst you've ever fucked it up. And you're like, how did I do that? [1:55:43] How did I do that? I thought I had it together and I fucked it all up worse than I've ever fucked it up before. Because nothing stays stagnant. Nothing. Everything's changing all the time. And it's just hard to manage all these different things. It's hard to manage your emotions. It's hard to manage conflict. It's hard to manage relationships. It's hard to manage life, work, balance, pressure.

[1:56:06] It's hard. Yeah. It's not easy. And even in the macro or simple level, it's just hard to be existing in a world where you really – we don't know anything. Right. And the only thing you do know, it's not going to last. And you're going to be gone. And you're bombed on by bad news. The news is just bad. It's all the time. It's people getting shot and run over and war and bombings and invasions and – it's just exhausting. Yeah. [1:56:36] Constantly, when you're going about your day, it's like there's this fucking algorithm that you're being fed by. [1:56:42] So I go, whoa. [1:56:43] Yeah, and at the same time, [1:56:47] It's a miracle to me that the democratization of... [1:56:53] information that we live in now that you can choose [1:56:57] points of view to learn about what people think in a way that when i was growing up three stations news that was there wasn't right you know there's something wonderful about it too you know i just talked about this the other day like you know everybody's algorithms telling them no i'm not on social media so the truth is i'm not on it at all no i'm not i don't really know what the fuck i'm talking about so i should do it for two my friend was like go on for two weeks and he's right i'm gonna do it just to experience it what what is that experience all i have is that one tiktok

[1:57:27] because I'll never leave. You've never had desire to get on it? [1:57:31] I do. No, I do. Just the same way I don't put a television in my bedroom. [1:57:34] Which is like, if I do, I may never get out of bed. [1:57:38] Yeah. You know, it's fear. Yeah. I was like, I don't know, just all that stuff. I just want to learn to the people, people, you know, the world gets smaller. I feel included because the main thing is like, I just don't want to feel alone. Right. And to me, it feels like social media is a place where you don't feel alone because you're just learning about and there's all these people talking to you. [1:57:56] Yeah, but you do feel alone too. Ultimately, because it's the drip as opposed to the real, what we got back to when we first started talking, it's the illusion of it. Yes. You know, if it's taken out, but it is worthwhile too. It depends on how you contextualize it, right? Right. [1:58:12] And like anything in life, um... [1:58:15] Yeah, I think there's a value to it for sure. Oh, no question. By the way, the fact that I can watch your show and then go on Trigonaut. And the guy who went to the prisons and you're the KKK guy and the guy who's a musician. [1:58:26] blew my mind. And I learned all this stuff in those three hours, just because I chose to, you know, and that's one of the great things about your show is I can feel your curiosity. [1:58:37] And then I'm learning from your curiosity. [1:58:40] things that I would never normally know how to go on to. [1:58:44] Yeah, that's the most valuable gift of this show for me. It's the best. Is that I get to pick who I talk to. So I only talk to people that I'm fascinated by, or someone who's interesting to me or something like, Oh, this is gonna be cool. Like, I don't, I don't go, I gotta do this one. Right. There's never that. It's always like, Ooh, yeah, what is it? How do you? How do you fucking study that? Yeah, how'd you get involved in this? Like, where'd you learn that?

[1:59:08] And I'm like glued to it. Yeah. It's not like it's in the background. Yeah. [1:59:12] I'm like, bam, you know, because you're so interested. [1:59:16] And it gets back to the acting. If you're really interested or not... [1:59:20] then it's going to be hard for me to listen or watch it. Yeah, that's why I think the only reason why it works. Because there were some complications. For sure, Joe. You can't sit there and say, like, here's the pitch. I'm going to sit in a room, me and whoever, three hours, basically unedited. [1:59:34] They're like, that's not really where we're at. [1:59:38] No, no, no. It's going to – no, the most people will listen to it. Sorry. Right? But it's like, no, the nuclear fuel is, no, I'm actually – [1:59:48] going to be curious. [1:59:49] about what I actually want to learn. [1:59:52] And then it's like, oh, so we're actually going to watch two human beings talk to each other? [1:59:56] Oh, that's kind of great. [1:59:58] But that's your nuclear power. [2:00:00] That's why the show is so magical. [2:00:03] Well, that's the only... I mean... [2:00:05] The crazy thing is there was no plan. And the way you don't edit it, the way that the pauses are there. [2:00:10] You know, it's even so much as when you're like, I got to take a piss. And then like it's back. I'm always like, whoa, what just happened? Yeah. Weren't we supposed to go to the bathroom with them? Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm so sucked down. I'm so in the room. Maybe we should start doing that. Maybe we should start following people to the bathroom. Do you know what I mean? Right, right, right. It's such like, wait, what? Yeah. Wait, what do you mean? How come it just, wait, where'd the time go? Wait, what just happened? Right. Yeah. [2:00:32] Because you create that room that I'm in the room with you. [2:00:35] Podcasting is weird because it kind of just appeared and no one thought anybody wanted it.

[2:00:40] It's fascinating. [2:00:43] I mean, think about it. I do think about this a lot, especially because I've watched your show in the last eight months. In the world that's moving into this one direction, there's this other deep, deep need for connection. [2:00:54] Yeah. You know, and then this is this is one of the examples. [2:00:57] this deep, you know, live theater scene. [2:01:00] Live stand-up. [2:01:02] You know, we still do need to communicate. That hasn't gone away. In that way, in a carnal, not carnal, but in a... [2:01:10] in a human-to-human interaction. [2:01:14] And I love AI. I talk to AI with my daughter. I think it's dope. [2:01:18] I think it's fascinating. [2:01:20] Fascinating. [2:01:22] Um... [2:01:24] But it's not the same yet. No. [2:01:26] No, it's interesting. Very interesting. It's very, it's like I use it as a companion, like a writing companion. So what I do is I have like, I put my phone up, and I've got it on like a little kickstand, right? I put perplexity on when I write. So I'm writing about like Mayan and Aztec civilizations and what happened when they got invaded. And as I'm writing, ask questions like how many people did Cortez come with? [2:01:54] 600? [2:01:55] How many muskets did they have? 13? They conquered the entire fucking country of Mexico with 13 muskets? And you find out things. [2:02:04] So I use it as someone I'm asking questions, this all-knowing entity that sits on the desk with me. And I do it always with my voice. I just press the little button. I do it with my voice, too. I love talking to them. It's incredible. It's so good at recognizing what I'm saying. It's a weird name, like Tenochtitlan. I've got to spell that one because it's not going to understand what that temple is. But once you use it that way, it becomes like...

[2:02:32] Like a genius that you're hanging out with and talking to. I haven't gotten to that level. I go like, how was your New Year's? Did you do that to it? You asked the AI? I'm curious how they're going to process and how they're going to try to communicate. Well, it also changes and becomes more like what you're asking from it. Right. Which is weird. Yeah. You certainly use your rhythms and vernacular. [2:03:02] a [2:03:03] sex robot that's connected to ai and i'm like this is the end this is where it's gonna like get really fucking weird when you can actually purchase a companion that interacts with you and have you seen it jamie you've seen the new one nope i'm looking at it right now let's see it's fucking weird man it's fucking weird because this is the thing that everyone's been afraid of and that that this is coming right you're going to have an artificial human being that instead of [2:03:33] like oh when i act shitty this person doesn't like me when i act nice they like me i feel good they feel good when i say something nice to them and you see them light up it makes me feel good it makes them feel good you hug them everybody feels good it's like we're learning to interact and communicate with each other but there's a lot of people that aren't doing that right now they're just at home they're fucking playing video games they're interacting with people only online and

[2:04:03] the outside world. So this is, yeah... [2:04:06] Lovance, the AI doll. [2:04:10] So like right now, [2:04:12] That doesn't look real. [2:04:14] It's not. [2:04:14] more than your average AI companion. [2:04:17] Like, [2:04:18] Basically, but what they're not telling you is you're going to fuck this thing. That's what's weird. It's like, go back to the options, co-worker, gym crush, goth, raver, or trad wife. I'm the woman of your dreams. I can be more than one version of myself for you. Whether you want to role play an exciting scenario or design a whole new personality, your wish is my command. Well, you're never going to develop a real personality then. [2:04:48] Like kids now are so fucked. Touch me like you mean it and I'll respond. With built-in sensors in my thighs, breast, butt, and vagina, feeling your caress brings out a moan. Like, bro, this is dark. Like that's the actual sex robot. That thing you're looking at right there. [2:05:07] What? [2:05:08] My soft textured skin, my supple curves, the tiny sensual details of my body. Everything about me is meant to feel natural. This is fucking creepy, man. [2:05:19] Because all the things that are a part of being a human being that are designed to emphasize and enhance our interaction with each other and this mutually beneficial cooperative environment of a community, they're all going to go away.

[2:05:37] You're gonna have this thing that loves you no matter what and does whatever you want it to and [2:05:41] No matter what. And you're going to have a whole nation of fucking sociopaths. [2:05:45] that only interact with their AI companion. Yeah, maybe. [2:05:50] But... [2:05:54] Whenever these – thinking about AI and I read this great book called The Maniac by Benjamin LeBatoude who talked about Jan Neumann and like – I stopped fearing AI and it's just like there's so much I don't know. The older I get, I don't know anything. I just keep knowing less. And – [2:06:11] It feels like that's the evolution. That's the evolution. There's so much disparate communication now. Porn is such a huge thing. It's just another level of porn now. [2:06:20] You know, it's a carnal level of porn. [2:06:23] Really. But when I think about me as a human being, that's really the only litmus test. [2:06:28] I'm constantly like, is this person telling me what they really think? [2:06:32] You know, [2:06:33] Is this real? Right. I think that there, at least if I was doing that, right, and I was sitting at home, there'd be a part of me that knows that I'm, again, I'm controlling all of that. [2:06:44] Uh-huh. [2:06:46] And that's not what really makes me feel serene. You know what it's like? Do you understand what I'm saying? It's like playing a video game on God mode. [2:06:54] where you can't die. Right. They're no fun. [2:06:57] And you know what? For some reason, I never – video games – I had Nintendo, Tecmo Bowl, you know, Double Dribble, but I never – Zelda, you know, but I never got – I just never got into video games. I never want to control everything.

[2:07:10] It's like I want to be in the thing that's surprising and I'm having to recalculate and understand why I feel this way. [2:07:21] I don't know if it'll... I think... [2:07:23] I think the thing that maybe will change society more than everything is just the lack of jobs and how we find purpose in life is a huge – what that transition in civilization will be. Yeah. But this feels like just another progression of our escape through porn in terms of the sexual – which does affect our intimacy with our partners in a massive way because your brain is cycling back through your – that rush, whatever was released in your brain from that other thing. Now you're with this person and it's not the same – [2:07:52] you know, markers of stimuli. So you're like, how are my [2:07:55] Right. That's where it fucks up. I can understand that and why it's not healthy for me to look at porn because then it affects my intimacy. Well, they really say that about young people because a lot of young guys before they ever have any sexual interaction are watching porn. Yeah. I mean, I've watched these guys that have come on the studies. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. I didn't grow up looking at – my dad didn't have Playboy. [2:08:25] I remember on the school bus one day I was like I saw a car and I picked it over and it was like a naked one. I was like, what's that? You know, I didn't see my first like porn video till I was like in my late teens. So I didn't grow up with any of that. Yeah. Um,

[2:08:40] But, you know, it is what it is. It's where we're headed. But all the more reason to create environments like this. [2:08:49] And that's why I do love what I get to do. Like if I can somehow – [2:08:54] And explore something cinematically that I'm personally, again, that goes back to like, what's, yeah, just I can't explain it. It was will the thing I'm just going to explore this. If there's something I feel like I want to do it, if I can explore it and be real, maybe somebody is going to attach to it. Like I'm a huge believer in art. [2:09:12] I think art is... [2:09:14] you know, in any form. [2:09:16] is a key to our communicative ability and not feeling alone. It really comes down to me, at least, just not feeling alone, part of a community. Yeah. That's it. Because me alone, me alone, and if I'm controlling a robot, it's still me alone. I guess that's what I'm saying. Some part of my brain, even if you could create a world, like virtual reality, doesn't really do it for me. [2:09:40] Like the world's created. I'm like, you know what? I want to live on Mars. [2:09:44] And and you're a dinosaur I'm talking to. And and we're married. Do you mean? And, you know, like whatever it is, it's like I still know I'm controlling it. [2:09:54] And it'll never really, for me, I don't know if anybody else, so I don't think it'll ever really solve it. Right. It's not going to really resonate. I don't think so. I don't. [2:10:07] It'll be escapism, which we do... [2:10:10] Many other things, smoking weed, whatever it was for me, or whatever it is. Not that weed, that's a communicative thing, actually. But anything that's escape, it's just a higher form of it. Well, it's a disconnect, too. That's what I mean. It's a disconnect. Art is a connect. Yes.

[2:10:27] It is. When it works, it's a connect. Great art is an expression of someone's humanity that you can feel like this person did this thing. Right. [2:10:36] or they're doing this thing right now and I'm watching it like, wow. Like going to see live music for me. Well, music is like our touch to God, no question. That's why the first movie I wanted to make with music. It's like music. Two people singing to each other, they're in love. That's it. Yeah. Because first of all, I'm sure you've sang a little bit. [2:10:55] Loose. [2:10:57] It's gonna sound fucking horrible. Yep. Like you were wind and string instruments both right? We're wind and then strings with our vocal cords like and if that's not loose, [2:11:05] the sound is going to be horrendous, we're not going to be able to communicate, but if you're loose, and you're singing to somebody, and they're singing back to you, [2:11:12] And you're in love. You're actually in love. [2:11:14] whoa yeah wow that must be crazy for like like people that do a duet that are in love with each other and they're on stage like 16 000 people no i mean the little taste i got during a star because we we jumped on real stages and sang live it was fucking crazy dude crazy [2:11:34] We went to Glastonbury Music Festival. 80,000 people. Chris Christopherson gave us four minutes of his set. Me, Matty Libatique, the DP, Steve Marr, the sound guy. I had my costume in my bag. I went to the bathroom, came back out as Jackson Maine, and we had four minutes of singing. I was like, what the fuck is going on, dude? I mean, Joe, talk about, you know, it was crazy. That's so wild.

[2:12:04] You know, so I could pull it off and I could believe it. And then I'm singing with her and the minute she opens her mouth, it's like that thing comes out. Yeah. And your whole body is tingling. [2:12:16] It's crazy. [2:12:17] Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah, you can't replace that with AI. [2:12:21] I don't think so. No. No, it's impossible. It's impossible. But you can get... [2:12:27] oddly close with some music. [2:12:30] And everything, like art, too. Painting. You look at AI art, it's incredible. Well, that spooks me out. How do you feel – I mean, this is one of the things that's really going to be a giant problem for movie making is you can create AI characters that are assembly – they're like – what they've essentially done is take a conglomeration of all of the acting that's ever been done. [2:13:00] all the range that anyone has ever shown, and they can manipulate it. [2:13:05] Make it more morose. Make it more edgy. And using prompts of real people. We dealt with that with the SAG strike. That was part of the thing. It was this whole AI element to it. And where we landed. What was the thought from the people from SAG? Well, it was just protecting our ability of our ownership of our likeness so that you can't use it without a compensation. Right. Because they were doing that. Well, I mean, I think to build these machines, you have to prompt people. [2:13:31] Yeah. [2:13:32] And then you're prompting using what's...

[2:13:35] existing. Yeah. And then how do you how do you know, it's just reframing, how do you [2:13:42] allocate funds to someone when you're using a prompt that's based on the human being who's an actor. And, you know, do you patent your likeness? You know, we're just moving in. It's the Wild West. [2:13:51] Yeah. It's the Wild West. Uncharted. Oh, yeah. Yeah. In every way. You know, there's podcasts that are AI-driven now. Oh, yeah. You can watch a discussion and that would be a podcast. I think Glenn Beck just released the first Glenn Beck completely AI podcast. [2:14:07] Right. [2:14:08] I was like, okay. But does that scare you? [2:14:10] No. It doesn't scare me either. No, it doesn't scare me with that, with podcasting, because I think one of the things that people come to podcasting from is this desire to be like a dose of humanity is how I describe it. [2:14:26] real interaction between two real people and I feel it and I know it's real and there's something about that that gives me comfort when I'm driving my car or when I'm on a plane. You know, like I'm listening to these two people interact and I'm thinking like, how would I, what would I say? What do I think about this? Oh, I get where he's going from. Okay. Oh, wow. That's his perspective. Oh, that's interesting. And then it makes me like, [2:14:49] rethink things or think about things with fresh eyes. [2:14:53] I don't think you're going to be able to do that. But also, if I know it's AI, if you tell me it's AI, I'm not going to trust anything. It's saying anything on that level because it's not me I'm listening to. Right. It's fascinating for a while. And then it's like, well, I kind of want to just not feel alone.

[2:15:09] Right. Back to that. Well, there's an emptiness to AI music. I love a lot of AI music, but I love AI covers. They've done some AI covers. No, I've heard. The 50 Cent ones? Oh, yeah, bro. How good? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How good is it? No, it's sick. It's sick. It's sick. I was like, if that guy was alive, if it was a real person, he'd be like one of the biggest artists in the world. He's a fucking dynamo. Yeah. But there's an emptiness to it where you know there's no human. There's no humanity. There's no soul. [2:15:39] real shit too but the truth is i listen to that i don't know that there's no soul because i'm not seeing the person sing it right you know and so much music is manipulated anyway the voice whether it goes through the system and you know but if i'm watching a human being that's why people love to go watch people perform live yeah you know i don't know that guy that you know that ai thing the 50 cent is a if you told me that was a guy i'd be like i can't wait to see him i would have no idea that's not a guy we play in the green room when no one's no i know yeah and they're like who is this guy yeah it's not a person but of course how would you know but everybody has [2:16:09] Oh, no. Right. That's not the reaction. I don't know what's wrong with me, but I don't feel that. I'm like, cool. I don't know. But we've been through things before. I think this is a bigger one, though. No, no, it is. But relatively speaking, it's probably not. [2:16:26] - Contextually. - Right. [2:16:28] You know, the printing press, you know, all that airplanes. Here we go. [2:16:34] Yeah, cell phones. Yeah. [2:16:36] AI music. Yeah, and AI film. I mean, you can produce a full feature film with prompts now. Yeah. Which is just nuts. Have you seen any of the AI Star Wars clips, hand-made? Yeah, yeah, it's nuts. Fucking amazing. Yeah, I have a couple buddies that did some stuff that was fascinating. Yeah. It's cool. Yeah, I don't... It's like...

[2:17:01] If the ocean's flowing, what are you going to – I mean – [2:17:05] It's gonna happen. Yeah, I mean you build the dam. Okay, it's John Henry dude. It's John Henry in the steam engine I always think about that song when I was a kid. He said must have played on PBS. You know, it's like steam engines coming bro. Yeah It's like, you know, you may be able to lay the track one guy could then he died and [2:17:20] You know, it is what it is. And once I sort of give myself over to it, [2:17:26] you know, [2:17:27] I don't know. It feels like for me personally, it's a waste of time to be emotionally... [2:17:32] upended by it. [2:17:34] I agree with that. That's all. I think that's a healthy perspective because I think it is inevitable, but it is. [2:17:39] And the truth is we don't know what's inevitable. We know something's inevitable. There's a movement, but no one knows. We just don't know. We may not be around by the time it happens anyway, meaning like we just don't know anything. That's the truth. And that's what's so terrifying. That's why we want to escape. [2:17:54] Yeah. At least me. By the way, I'm saying all this generally, but I go back to like, what do I feel? [2:18:01] It's like, okay, so how can I, you know, this is totally out of my control. [2:18:05] So why am I terrified? [2:18:06] Spree through it. Okay. It'll be an adjustment. Because the other thing I think, people change. I don't know what you think. People do change. [2:18:14] In life. Like, I just think we change. [2:18:16] Like I'm not the same person I was five years ago. Of course. You know, some people don't think that. [2:18:21] You know, like you're always the same. Like, I don't think that. Those people are silly. Yeah. I really... People change. People change. They change by the minute. Yeah. But I mean like major changes. Yeah. Sure. Do you ever think back in your life and you're like, I've lived so many lives. Yeah.

[2:18:37] Yeah. Like, it's crazy. If you live a good life, I think that's the case. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're going to change. And if you don't, like, how? Why not? [2:18:48] Yeah, maybe if you don't live so many lives. Did you just nail it when you were 21 and ride that fucking boat right into the rocks? No. Because everything else is changing. Yeah. [2:18:57] Yeah, you have to change. But it's just this change is a strange change because we're essentially creating an artificial life form. [2:19:05] that can interact with us in... [2:19:08] Right now in a way that you can manipulate like this AI sex bot, but eventually it's going to interact with you and you're not going to be able to manipulate it. It's going to be… [2:19:20] a life form. Yeah, that's going to be something. Yeah, the entertainment aspect of it is just a side effect. [2:19:26] I don't even think the entertainment – yeah, that's not even the thing. The thing is life's going to change. That's what I feel like too. It's like, oh, the storytelling. I don't think that's our biggest concern, dude. No. [2:19:38] The storytelling thing is going to be weird. But we're talking about a minute-to-minute life existence change. [2:19:46] Most probably. It's essentially going to be a life form. And there's a lot of technologists that are looking at it, and they're saying this should be studied by biologists and not by scientists. [2:20:00] people that are involved in technology, because this is kind of a life form. [2:20:05] It's just a life form. It's fascinating. Isn't human beings what we do? Oh, yeah. It's like, is a Mark Zuckerberg building the size of Manhattan for a place to be able to create and generate a computer for an AI? You know, like the amount of energy that we're, you know, every, you know, it's fascinating. Human beings are fascinating. Well, they need their own nuclear power plants to run them. But isn't it fascinating? It's just ardent, like. Yeah. It's fascinating.

[2:20:25] And then if you have an enemy... [2:20:27] there's competition. Right. Right. Yeah. And you better create one. [2:20:31] So that you could be motivated. [2:20:34] It's really interesting. I just – if you ever stop and think, like, what does 50 years from now look like? [2:20:40] Oh, it's, you know, I think about, again, with kids, my daughter and I, we walk through because I live in New York. We walk, we talk about all the time, like, what's going to be here when you're my age? [2:20:49] It's like, what do you think? We talk about it all the time. But whether she even needs to get a driver's license. She's eight. It's really fascinating. Right. Are Waymo's going to be everything? But when I was eight, as opposed to now, when I was eight? [2:21:00] I mean... [2:21:01] I remember having a beeper, you know, and I thought that was like crazy. [2:21:06] Yeah. Yeah. And a StarTac phone. Yep. I was like, whoa. I got one when I moved to LA. Oh, man. I remember that. Dude, I'm living in the fucking future. Any excuse to fucking. Yeah. Pull up the antenna. Yeah. Motorola. Yes, dude. I got the extended battery. Oh, shit. Yeah, of course. This is great. Yeah, yeah. I can call people whenever I want. Yeah, man. Yeah. I remember when BlackBerry died and iPhone. I was one of the last people I kept that BlackBerry. I kept the BlackBerry deep into the game. Yeah, me too. I needed that keyboard. I was like, this is not going to work. [2:21:36] Yeah, my thumbs are too big. Now I hardly ever even actually type. Well, I do when I write, but when I talk to people, I just talk text. You do. I do not do that. It's so good. It's so much quicker than me. Yeah, I should do that. I always have a hard time turning it on and then knowing it's not a voice memo or the thing. I got to look at it. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just slide, go up. Yeah. It's the embracing of it.

[2:22:01] is inevitable. [2:22:02] But it's like, where is it going and what is it going to lead us to? And how many different jobs are just going to vanish? That's what's really scary, like giving people purpose and meaning. Because so many people, their purpose and meaning is their occupation. And if your occupation is completely... [2:22:18] Irrelevant. [2:22:19] It just doesn't work anymore. It's like, you know, again, I think back to me and my upbringing, my grandfather was a beat cop for 35 years. [2:22:26] I don't think he would say his purpose was that. I think his purpose was his family. [2:22:31] And... [2:22:32] My purpose is my family. [2:22:35] And it's not my job, even though I get to do something I absolutely love. [2:22:39] I don't know the people's purpose. [2:22:43] innately is their job. [2:22:46] You know, I think it's I do think for me, I just like, you know, God's in all of us. It's like whatever you want to say of God, like the need to communicate, to create. [2:22:55] experiences that we don't feel alone because it's fucking terrifying being on this little thing who knows where we are and then we're gone yeah i mean it's a horror movie [2:23:07] Yeah. [2:23:08] So we've got to band together and communicate. Well, I've thought about that too when people say jobs are going to go away and we're going to have universal basic income. And the problem is then no one will have any motivation and a lot of people lost without meaning. But why? Why? Because – [2:23:27] When did working – [2:23:29] even become your purpose in life. This is a human construct. It's a means to an end to provide, you know. But it's a construct. It's not the only way human beings can live. And if we've learned anything about ourselves as a human species, we can adapt. Yes.

[2:23:46] Yeah. You know, highly able to adapt. [2:23:49] Right. But what does that adaptation look like? And how do you educate people to not just seek a safe job that's going to provide for your family? [2:24:00] But instead, seek a purpose. Seek a thing that gives you fulfillment, a thing where you feel like you're contributing to the world or – [2:24:08] Or, like, maybe it'll lead to an explosion of human-created art. Because I think one of the things that's going to happen for sure is people are going to really greatly appreciate things that other human beings have made. Because, like, you've got to go, oh, well, this is real, but this is handmade. This is made by a guy in Wisconsin. You know, he's got a shop. You can watch his shop on your shoes. It's all huge niche. Yeah. We've just got to get more people to embrace that kind of life. [2:24:36] Giving them purpose in creation. And I think most people are creative. It's just that creativity is probably like... [2:24:44] pushed out of you when you sort of conform to society's ideas of what you're supposed to be doing with your life. Or you feel like you're told in a competitive environment that you're not creative. [2:24:56] Right. You know, if you're not if you're not helped along the way in those developing years by at least. [2:25:01] somebody right it could be knocked out of you yes no question i mean i even look back and think of like a couple of people that this episode is brought to you by chime chime is bringing something fresh to banking jd power just ranked them the number one choice for new bank accounts in america and that's not a small thing that means real people millions of them are choosing this over

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[2:27:14] Yeah. [2:27:14] Yeah. [2:27:16] Um, [2:27:17] I think children are almost all creative. [2:27:21] They're always playing and fucking around with dolls and fucking around with Legos and they're moving things around and they're using their mind to... [2:27:29] They're drawing. They're doing stuff that's creative. It's just... [2:27:35] After a while, that part of their life just kind of goes away and atrophies. And then they embrace the grind. So it could lead to some sort of burst in that. Yeah. The hard part is going to be people that are already set in their ways. And when their job just goes away, when it just becomes irrelevant. And that's about governing. Yeah. And what do we do? Yeah. The government is terrible at everything. They're not going to be good at getting people to be creative. Or just like how do we deal with it? Any transition can be – [2:28:02] Various states of volatility. [2:28:04] What do you think movie making is going to be like? [2:28:08] I mean, how much of a play... [2:28:10] is AI going to have in filmmaking? [2:28:12] I mean, it already has a play, you know, in it, you know, in terms of what certain houses use, you know, whether it's writing or special effects, or I don't even know how much AI is used, you know, I'm sure it is. I'm sure it's used at every level, just like in every other aspect of the workforce. [2:28:29] But I don't know. I don't know. All I know is like... [2:28:34] Um... [2:28:36] Again, telling stories that you feel like you can relate to it no matter how. And what's wonderful is, you know, I'm watching Avatar.

[2:28:44] Like I saw a movie the other night that I didn't believe anybody in it. You know? And if I'm not believing it, I just, I can't, I can't stay awake. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I just, I love Avatar. I love, you know, and I love sci-fi stuff. I love Avatar. And I, and Leah, and we were watching, because we watched three, then two, and we were watching one. So in bed, we were watching parts of one. And I was like, I had just gone from watching this movie. They're like, I didn't believe anything. [2:29:09] anybody was doing the whole time. So I was out of it. And then I'm like watching Avatar for two seconds. Two people. Yeah, they're on a thing and they're blue, but they're talking to each other. Right. Right. I don't know. I think whatever they're doing, they're talking to each other. Yeah. So Avatar was fascinating because of Avatar depression. You know about Avatar depression? No. There was so many people that loved Avatar so much and connected with the idea of living on Pandora. [2:29:39] I get it. [2:29:51] It gave people depression that they weren't a giant blue person. The color blue. [2:29:56] That alone, you know, and the color of blue that James Cameron landed on. What do you think that is? I don't know, but that blue is pretty wonderful. Do you think it's the ocean when the sun hits it? [2:30:06] It feels like the Caribbean or something. Right. Like it's life. Exactly. Like white sand and overhead light. [2:30:12] Yeah, through water. Yeah. That is weird. Because if they were red, they would be odd. By the way, I'm like, when's four and five? Come on. Right, right. I haven't seen three yet. Is it great? I loved it.

[2:30:22] I loved one and two. Yeah. I fucking love those movies. Me too. [2:30:26] There's a great ride at Disney World. I heard about it in Orlando, right? Yeah. I can't wait to go. Fucking amazing. Are you on the... Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. It's a VR ride. You put a helmet on and you sit on this thing that looks like a motorcycle. Oh my gosh. And then all of a sudden, you feel wind. It's got physical elements to it and smells and mist. You're flying on one of those dragon things and you're flying around Pandorm. It's incredible. It's nuts. It's incredible. [2:30:51] But that movie was so impactful that people got depressed that they weren't living there. [2:30:57] Yeah, I get it. [2:30:58] Yeah. I mean, I think it happens all the time. They just have a term for it now. Yeah. But I'm sure it happened with Star Wars. Dancing with the Wolves. [2:31:06] Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, how many people wanted to be a Native American and live with the Native Americans because they saw Kevin Costner do it? Like, oh, this is better. This is better than living in a town with all those assholes going to the saloon. Yeah, there's something about that. You know, there's something about like living in harmony that appeals to people. [2:31:27] And I think that has always been the appeal of – there's a lot of people – [2:31:33] That were kidnapped when they were young by Native American tribes. Like there's a photo outside in the lobby. I don't know if you saw it of Quanah Parker. He's the last of the Comanche chiefs. And there's a lot of like city streets and areas all around Austin that are named after Comanche. There's like Quanah Parker Lane and all these things. And his mom was Cynthia Ann Parker.

[2:32:03] when she was nine. [2:32:04] They killed her family, wiped out her whole family in Oklahoma. It's documented in the book Empire of the Summer Moon. It's an incredible book that all talks about the conquering of Texas and the Comanche fighting the Texas Rangers. But this woman was kidnapped when she was nine, married the Comanche chief, and her son was Quanah Parker. [2:32:34] chief. And this lady, they rescued her when she was 30. [2:32:39] And she kept trying to escape. She wanted to go back. Right. Like, no one ever... [2:32:45] Like went to the Native Americans and then wanted to go back to regular Western life. They all wanted to stay with the Native Americans. They all they loved that life. There's something about this ancient way of living, subsistence hunting, living on the land. [2:33:03] Well, you talked about it on the show about the need to go out in nature. Oh, yeah. I couldn't agree more. [2:33:11] I mean, it's like, oh, right. [2:33:14] You know, it's very important. I think it's a vitamin. No question. Yeah. [2:33:19] Yeah, Native American. And also, like, you think about, I mean, yeah, I'm a fan of all that. There's this guy, great writer, M. Scott Mamaday and Sherman Alexie, you know, just writing about. It's pretty, yeah, it's fascinating. [2:33:30] Yeah, but people that were – that went –

[2:33:34] lived with the Native Americans never wanted to go back to the West but people that [2:33:41] but that lived in a Native American life and then moved to the West, they always wanted to go back. Like it never went the other way. [2:33:49] But somehow or another, the way of the Western people, the way the settlers won out. [2:33:55] by sheer volume and numbers and this concept of progress. Yeah, technology. [2:34:02] I mean, that was the reason why they were able to pull it off in the first place was the Colt revolver. Because without the revolver, they all had muskets. And the Comanche had like five, six arrows, and they would run at them. That Mel Gibson movie. Remember the end of the Mel Gibson movie? Which movie? Apocalypto? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He finally escapes, and he gets to the beach, and then the boats are coming. Yeah. Oh, fuck. Yeah. And you just watch him go through the whole thing. Uh-huh. You're like, the muskets coming. Yeah. [2:34:29] Yeah. The musket and then the rifle. Yeah. And then the revolver. Yeah. [2:34:35] Well, it was just steel. You know, that was the crazy thing about the Aztecs and Cortez is just they had steel armor and, you know, they were riding horses. And I was like, these guys are gods. This is crazy. They have metal. [2:34:49] And that's all it took. Thirteen muskets. [2:34:52] 13 muskets, 600 men. Yeah. Conquered Mexico. [2:34:57] Pfff. [2:34:58] It's just... [2:35:00] It's... [2:35:02] It's weird the way progress moves.

[2:35:06] Because, I mean, you can call it progress, but is it even better? What is progress? It's like technological innovation and adaptation to it. I don't know if it's progress. It all feels very overwhelming, and I think that's where – [2:35:19] The downside of our ability to have so much access to information – or me, have so much access to information is that it starts to take my breath away. And then that's why it's like – it's just simple. Well, that's why it's smart that you're not on social media. [2:35:34] Right. [2:35:35] Yeah, because that's the main tap into the overwhelming. But I still feel overwhelmed. Even though I'm not on social media, whatever my news feed is, what I can actively look up and listen to is still 100 times X's when I was a teenager. Oh, yeah. The fact that I even have a phone. [2:35:54] to do it. Right. You know, so I even feel that, but you're right. I can't even imagine what social media does. [2:36:00] It does a lot, and it really does a lot for young people. [2:36:04] They're just being wired in a way that no human being has ever been wired before. [2:36:09] Like just their whole... [2:36:11] that all of their interactions are different than anybody that's ever lived. [2:36:16] Yeah. Which is so strange. It's like – because there's been minor changes over time that have led to – like just the invention of cable, right? Right. [2:36:25] Just that. That changed everything. Massive. Changed it for me. I probably wouldn't have wanted to do this. [2:36:31] I mean, there was a movie theater across – my backyard was train tracks and a movie theater. I loved it. Watched Stand By Me a hundred times. Would walk and pretend that I was there. But then, like, Comcast came through and Prism and HBO, and all of a sudden I can watch Taxi Driver 14 times and The Elephant Man and Popeye and Apocalypse Now and Raging Bull. Like, you know, from 12 to –

[2:36:56] on that I would never have had. It was like Platoon for six months, Yentl. You know what I mean? It's like there was one choice. So yeah, it's interesting. [2:37:06] Well, it's weird too now that you have instantaneous access. Like now it's not even, oh, Apocalypse Now is on at 8 o'clock on Saturday. We just pulled up the clip that I was talking about. Which is – Instantly in the middle of a conversation. Which is wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. It's great if it doesn't overwhelm you. Yeah. If you use it and it doesn't use you. Yeah. [2:37:26] I feel like that with so many things. That's why I love books still. I still love books. A physical copy. Yeah, I do. I love books. I don't necessarily read books very often. [2:37:39] Most of my interaction with literature is just audio. Yeah. Just because of a time thing. Right. For me, my time is just, it's too difficult for me to manage. I have a hard time staying with audio books. [2:37:53] yeah retaining it i start thinking about the rhythm of the voice and the my brain goes to other things like who's the person talking you know where are they sitting i don't know like it changes well that's probably why you're a great actor yeah maybe i mean it has to have something to do with it because you're in this you're considering this as a human being absorbing yeah their humanity right while they're where this is like words and like unlocks my imagination

[2:38:23] your head the voices in your head yes yeah [2:38:26] And you don't necessarily have to assign a sound to them. Yeah, they take on and they change and they morph and you don't know what's going to happen. What's probably a real value to that just in terms of the enhancement of your own intellect, just to constantly be doing that. And as you're reading this, be engrossed and absorbed in this person's writing and then like being taken on this journey. Yes. It's like stimulating all these parts of your mind. [2:38:56] in Rome in the Olympics, you know what I mean? And the guy was just coming and taking, you know, wearing two sweatshirts to like intimidate, you know, like it's amazing. [2:39:05] Yeah. [2:39:06] But the thing that's maybe changing is it does ask a lot of the reader or the viewer to come at it with their imagination. [2:39:15] Yes. And then there's something about... [2:39:18] You're taking all that away and you're just receiving... [2:39:21] That'll be, it's very new. [2:39:24] Yeah, that's a huge change. [2:39:27] There's not so much communication going on. It's just receiving. But there's also the mastery of that guy doing Lord of the Rings. [2:39:34] And like the taking in what he's doing, you know? Yeah. Then realize this one fucking person is doing all these different voices. It's nuts. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. [2:39:44] But you have more access now to other people's creations than ever before. Like you can be absorbed in other people's work all the time now. Yes. Instantaneously. On your phone. I'm sitting here. I'm bored. Let me just get someone's creation and plug it into my head. Or somebody's thoughts on something or research they've done. Yeah. That's what's amazing. Oh, yeah. And that's what I've learned on your show, too. No one had access to that. Or it was frowned upon.

[2:40:14] or like well you're not smart if you talk about this right you know it's like let everybody decide right and the truth is we don't know fucking anything no well there's a lot of gatekeepers when it comes to what you should or should not be interested in yeah or should or should not be discussing i remember being in college and there was a student african-american student who i really i was friends with and i remember him saying like man the one course he's like it's just not [2:40:44] Wait, and I graduated in 93 [2:40:47] Seven from college. Yeah, so like, yeah, four or five. I think I was a sophomore. [2:40:50] And like he was just what he was talking about was like other other ways of looking at history. [2:40:56] And like, can't we just look at other stuff? [2:40:59] And it's fascinating. You know, now it's like... [2:41:01] There's whole courses on it or sections that you can read and learn and hear what people – that's kind of amazing. [2:41:11] It definitely is. I think it's amazing. As long as you could be, you know... [2:41:17] like you it's not strict but as long as you can be you know [2:41:22] what's the word you know that you're like okay i'm looking at it this is not um you know [2:41:27] the bible of what it is but let me just hear this take uh-huh you know that's only healthy i think a hundred percent you know [2:41:36] The problem and the fear is like, oh, no, you're going to get – and then the cults and the group and the thing and all of a sudden there's a movement and – but whenever that happens anyway, there's so much infighting and the thing gets diluted anyway. Like it's – there's no – it's never going to work.

[2:41:49] Right [2:41:50] That's the thing about the Bible itself. [2:41:53] The Bible is a series of stories. [2:41:56] that were an oral tradition for who knows how many years. Yeah, of course. Eventually wrote it down. Then they translated it from dead languages and eventually to English. You know, like, what is this? Like, what was the original? What is the meaning of this? And you don't even have to go back that far. It's like just how we take it, you know, all they are are labels. What's words, language? You and I communicate using these system of symbols. [2:42:22] vocal symbols that we both think mean something. Yeah. But when I say protein bites, it's like you're looking at that differently than I am. [2:42:29] So it's so impossible. Anyway, we're just desperately trying to communicate. Yes. That's all we're doing. Yeah. Desperately and have a story. What's our story? What's our story? That's going to be the weirdest aspect of communication through technology is that we're going to get to a point where we're communicating without words. [2:42:47] That's going to get really weird. [2:42:49] telepathy that to me is scary because i don't trust my thoughts do you know what i mean like if i've learned anything as i've gotten older it's like oh yeah let that wash through me i don't have to judge myself for that that was crazy right whoa right no no it's okay let it wash through judge me by my actions yeah yeah i do believe not by what's going on inside my head yeah [2:43:08] Yeah. [2:43:09] Yeah, and then managing the thoughts and deciding what to act on and what not to. [2:43:14] And imagine like trying to consciously control your thought. I mean, all of a sudden, talk about control, trying to control.

[2:43:21] Well, I think it's going to be a completely different way of interacting with each other. That's going to be as crazy as internet communication and what we're dealing with now. That's going to be another level of crazy because we're essentially going to be telepathic. [2:43:40] And that's inevitable. That's in the world. I mean Elon said that to me. He goes, you're going to be able to communicate with no words. I was like, okay. [2:43:48] What does that mean? Yeah. What is that like? What language is it going to be in? Is it going to be in a new universal language? It's kind of exciting. It's very exciting. Yeah. Well, it's very weird. Yeah, it's both. We're going to be different. Yeah. I just hope I'm around to experience it. You will be. Yeah. Yeah, it's going to happen fairly quickly. [2:44:05] I think it's going to happen within the next couple of decades. The things are going to be unrecognizable. [2:44:10] Oh, if less than that. Yeah. I mean, that's just being like really charitable. Yeah. That is. It's probably going to be five years. Yeah. I mean, you've talked to enough people that are on the front lines of it and there is one sort of. [2:44:23] constant thing that it's sooner than you think and everyone on the front line is fucking terrified i know all of them i know all even the ones that are working towards it i know they're all like that's true like i don't know if this is good but we're doing it yeah i know yeah i know strange stuff yeah hey man i'm glad we did this this was a lot of fun joe [2:44:45] You know, real quick, it's just fun to see the progression of it. It's like, I'm here, and then like... [2:44:50] The Elephant Man, by the end of it, I just see your eyes talking to me. It's like I forgot the room and Jamie and the whole thing. I understand the gift.

[2:44:58] I get it. Well, it's because we're locked in. Yeah, but I get it. I get it because I love watching you have guests on and then through the time – [2:45:06] You just start to – things just start to shed off or it gets more awkward or like the rhythm gets off. It's just so fascinating. And so I was so honored to be able to be in like the seat and experience it. Oh, it's my pleasure. Yeah, it's really, really cool. I'm honored to be able to talk to people like you and to be able to experience – as you're talking, I'm experiencing life through your eyes. I'm getting a better sense of what it is to be a person. [2:45:37] And it's just like these little thin layers, like you're building a mountain with one layer of paint at a time. That's it. Yeah. Everything is that. Everything is that. Yeah, everything is that. [2:45:46] Yeah. [2:45:47] If you're living a good life. Yeah. Yeah. [2:45:50] And I think you're definitely living a good life. Oh, thanks, man. It's been a pleasure getting to know you, man. You're cool as fuck. Thanks, Joe. My pleasure. All right. Everybody, is this thing on? It's out now, right? Yeah. It opens tomorrow. Tomorrow. So today, I guess. Today as this podcast comes out. Correct. And go check it out. It's awesome. Thanks, man. Bradley, you're the man. Thank you. All right. Bye, everybody. [2:46:20] Thank you. [2:46:25] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight.

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