Pattern Breakers: How to find a breakthrough startup idea | Mike Maples, Jr. (Partner at Floodgate)

[00:00] You found that there's basically three elements of most breakthrough startup ideas. The three are inflections, insights, and then founder future fit. Business is never a fair fight. What inflections let the founder do is wage asymmetric warfare on the president. You reference this term that you use occasionally, the earned secret. The way inventions happen is people get their hands dirty, being awake to the possibility that secrets are there. If you're living in the future and you notice what's missing, [00:30] - This connects with that stat that you shared, that 80% of your biggest returning investments came from a pivot. - So a startup never beats a big company by executing better. The way startups win is because it proposes a radically different future, disorients the incumbent, and chaotically moves people to that different future. The rock is the inflection, the slingshot is the insight, that David shoots at Goliath. We're looking to create the conditions where we're gonna get to play an unfair game by unfair rules that favor us. [00:56] Today, my guest is Mike Maples, Jr. Mike is a legendary early stage startup investor [01:06] and with his firm Floodgate, which was founded over 20 years ago, was one of the earliest pioneers of seed stage investing as a category. [01:13] He's made early bets on transformative companies like Twitter, Lyft, Twitch, Okta, Rappi, and Applied Intuition, and has been on the Forbes Midas list 8 times. [01:23] More recently, he's been spending a lot of his time researching where great startup ideas come from, [01:28] and what separates the startups and founders that break through and change the world

[01:33] from those that don't go anywhere. [01:35] After spending years reviewing his notes and decks from the thousands of startups that he's met with over the past two decades, [01:41] He's uncovered three ways that breakthrough founders think differently and act differently. [01:46] In our conversation, Mike shares what he's uncovered, along with the pitfalls that he's seen many founders and startups fall into, how to apply these pattern-breaking principles to large companies, and so much more. I've never seen anything like this sort of research done before on early-stage investing and startups, and if you're a founder, a product builder, or an investor, [02:06] This will change the way that you think about building successful products. [02:09] Also, as an added bonus, Mike has offered listeners of this podcast a very cool offer. If you pre-order the book at patternbreakers.com slash Lenny, you will receive a second signed copy of the book for free. [02:24] There are a limited number of copies available of this offer, so if you're interested, I'd encourage you to place your order ASAP. The book is coming out July 9th. To take advantage of this offer, go to patternbreakers.com slash Lenny. [02:37] With that, I bring you Mike Maples Jr. [02:43] Mike, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Lenny, thanks for having me. It is absolutely an honor. [02:50] It's my honor. [02:51] What we're going to be talking about in our conversation today is [02:54] How to come up with a startup idea. [02:56] and how to [02:57] take the first few steps to make that idea real. [03:01] You have a book coming out? [03:02] that is exactly this, helping people understand how to do this. It's called Pattern Breakers, Why Some Startups Change the Future.

[03:10] Let me just ask, [03:11] kind of a broad question. [03:13] You're very busy, very successful investor. [03:16] Why did you decide to write a book? [03:19] Like a lot of things in life, it was kind of an outgrowth of an accident, an outgrowth of being down a certain rabbit hole. So, you know, about 10 years ago. [03:30] Twitch was acquired by Amazon for $970 million. [03:34] And we made something like 85 times our money. And normally you'd think that's a really good thing. It was a good thing. [03:40] But I had forgotten that I was even a shareholder at which. [03:43] And so I had to go to my LPs and I had to explain to them, hey, I'm sorry, I don't have this in my financial statements. [03:50] Uh, you know, but do you want me to restate them? And they, they were all like, nope, we're good. Just send us the money. [03:56] And some of them even sent me like bottles of champagne and stuff and the good kind. [04:01] Then I started to kind of feel a little bit unsettled because so how was I shareholder in Twitch? I invested in a company called Justin TV. [04:10] that had morphed into two companies, SocialCam and Twitch, and then SocialCam got bought. And so I just thought that was the company. [04:17] So then I looked at it. [04:19] I'd been investing for about 10 years. [04:21] And I noticed that like 80% of my exit profits had gone from pivots. [04:25] And I also noticed that like, [04:28] all the ones that had seemed to do well [04:31] didn't necessarily follow the best practices that everybody talked about. I didn't see the Twitter guys doing the business model canvas, for example.

[04:40] And I didn't see the Justin TV team, even as they morphed into Twitch, being... [04:45] who I would hold up as like the most functioning management team I ever saw. [04:49] Right. A lot of it was pretty crazy and wild and random. [04:54] And at the same time, I was helping founders shut down their companies. [04:58] And they had seemed to do all the right things. They'd done the business model canvas. They'd done customer development. They'd done... [05:04] All the things you're supposed to do, hired well, [05:08] They would have been a Harvard Business School case study, except for the fact that they failed. [05:12] And so the genesis of this project was really like, OK, should I just retire before I get exposed? [05:17] Is this just all random? Am I just lucky? [05:20] Or is there something else worth understanding? And as I started to develop conviction about what those things were, [05:27] I started to talk to people about it. A lot of people said, oh, you should write a book. [05:31] founders ought to see this, it'd be really valuable. [05:34] for their thought process and coming up with their startup ideas. [05:38] This episode is brought to you by Interpret. Interpret unifies all of your customer interactions, from gong calls to Zendesk tickets to Twitter threads to App Store reviews, and makes it available for your product team. It's used by leading product orgs like Canva, Notion, Loom, Linear, and Descript. [05:56] to accurately integrate the voice of the customer into your product development process, helping you build best-in-class products. What makes Interpret special is its ability to build customer-specific adaptive AI models that provide the most granular and accurate categorization of all your customer feedback,

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[08:09] Amazing. I'm even more excited to get into the meat of this. I was already excited. [08:13] Before we get into that, just can you share a bit about the work that you did to uncover these insights? I know you have hundreds of decks of all these early stage companies you've looked at. [08:22] What is the work that went into this? Yeah, so there's a movie that came out a few years ago called Trainspotting, right? And there's these guys, these dorky old British guys in anorak coats, [08:33] who chart the comings and goings of trains like it's the most interesting thing in the world. They put it in their journals and everything. [08:39] I'm that way when it comes to startups. So I have a database of... [08:44] Any startup where you would have made more than 100 acts on your first check? [08:49] And what I want to do is I want to [08:51] get a time capsule for those startups. I want to understand [08:55] What did it look like not after it succeeded? [08:58] But what did it look like at precisely the time you would have needed to decide whether it was an interesting opportunity? [09:05] So I have the original pitch deck for what was at the time called Airbed and Breakfast. [09:10] which I foolishly passed on and, um, [09:13] you seem to have made a good career decision in joining. A little later, but yeah. And, you know, I have the pitch deck for Pinterest. I have the pitch deck for... [09:21] All of these that we either passed on or said yes to. [09:26] And the reason I want to do that is [09:30] It's easy to misremember how things really happened. [09:33] And what I find is even the founders themselves, we have a tendency to remember knowing more than we really did at the time.

[09:41] And so, you know, I really wanted to do the best job I could of understanding [09:45] exactly what it was like. What was the origin story of this idea? How did they come up with it? [09:52] If they pivoted, what caused them to pivot? [09:55] When did they first start to encounter success? What was the reason for that? [09:59] all those things. And, and I, [10:01] had to be really careful in the questions that I ask. Because, like, for example, you don't ask, why were you successful? [10:07] Because then they'll offer their reasons they thought they were successful. What you want to do is you want to say, okay, [10:13] I notice here is the seed pitch deck. [10:15] and you called the product X, but now the product's called Y, [10:20] when did you make that change why did that happen and so you're trying to do the very best you can [10:25] of asking a very non-judgmental set of questions that are going to give you a non-judgmental set of answers. [10:32] so that you can kind of be like a detective and kind of get to the root cause of why these things took off. [10:37] Incredible. [10:38] And I think what's also important is you have access to more [10:42] data and more unique data than most other people because you invest so early stage. Yeah, I think the other thing is I just have a pretty simpatico relationship with founders usually. And so, [10:52] I can kind of push for the real. [10:54] And they're not, you know, I'm like, look, I'm not going to I won't share anything you don't want me to share. I'm just trying to understand. [11:01] And so, you know, when you have kind of these informal relationships, [11:05] That's the other thing I learned is you try not to show up in a conference room interviewing them like a normal interview. You try to.

[11:12] you try to glean these facts over time with informal discussions and, you know, in the midst of talking about other things as well. And so, [11:21] So I think that that was part of what was really valuable about the exercise was the [11:26] Sort of the opportunity to get the unvarnished wild story. [11:30] of what really happened. [11:32] Amazing. Okay, so let's get into it. [11:35] Your book's basically broken up into kind of two parts. [11:38] how to come up with an idea, and then the actions you need to get right. [11:42] to move forward an idea and you have a really cool way of framing how [11:46] to do this and then we'll get into it but [11:49] maybe frame the [11:50] these two parts real quick yeah so i'll give it my best shot i mean the the main thing is that business is never a fair fight [11:58] So the incumbents start out with an advantage. [12:02] And the default is they will maintain their advantage. [12:05] And so the startup has to decide that it wants to fight unfairly. [12:10] And so how does a startup fight unfairly? [12:13] it has to harness a different set of powers than are obvious to most people. Right. So so, for example, [12:20] Better doesn't matter when you're a startup. [12:23] because better is an extension of the present. [12:27] Better is when you think the future will resemble the present, but only be slightly different. [12:33] The way startups win is by being radically different. [12:36] A startup wins by avoiding the comparison trap entirely. [12:42] So like when Lyft launched ride sharing and then Uber launched,

[12:45] closely followed right with UberX. [12:47] Nobody after riding rideshare said, oh, how's that different from taxis? [12:52] Right. It was just self-evident how different it was. [12:55] And so like that's what what we mean by forcing a choice and not a comparison. [13:00] So the startup capitalist [13:04] it turns out is a different type of capitalist, right? A corporate capitalist [13:08] makes money by persistently compounding, makes money by extending their advantage, makes money by having a moat. [13:15] makes money by... [13:17] you know, doing things well, [13:19] over and over again in a compounding way. [13:22] Startup has none of those things. There's nothing to compound. [13:26] And so the way a startup wins is they just change the subject. They deny the premise of the rules. [13:32] and propose something completely different. And that was the, [13:35] The original notion behind pattern breaking was... [13:38] You want to have an idea that just radically breaks the pattern that can't be compared to anything that's come before. [13:44] And that's when the startup has a chance to play offense. [13:47] So coming back to the two parts are [13:50] Coming up with the idea and the actions that you got to take. [13:52] So let's dive into coming up with an idea. And this is where I want to spend most of the time, because I think this is where most people get it wrong. Everything starts with the idea. So I think there's a lot of meat here. [14:02] And what I love about your book is you have a very succinct, limited number of things [14:07] you've uncovered that are [14:09] elements across [14:11] successful companies, pattern breaking companies. So within the idea,

[14:15] bucket. [14:16] you found that there's basically three elements of most breakthrough startup ideas. [14:21] Can you share the three and then let's talk about each one. [14:24] Yeah, the three are inflections, insights, [14:28] And then what I call founder future fit, or another way I phrase it is, is this from the future? [14:34] But those are the main three things that I've observed that, [14:38] Uh, [14:39] tend to suggest breakthrough potential. And [14:43] Here's an important thing. [14:44] You'll notice I didn't say the implementation, right? So one of the things that I learned is that if you have the right insight, and we'll get to some of this, you have a first mover advantage into the future. [14:54] And so a lot of times your first implementation won't be right. [14:58] But if your insight is correct, you can navigate the implementation to the right implementation to get product market fit. [15:04] And so but what we need to understand is [15:08] there need to be these underlying forces underneath the idea to give it the power to escape the gravitational pull of the present right that's what we want we want [15:17] a set of powers that we could observe [15:20] that make it worth pursuing and make it worth navigating the product to the ultimate place. [15:25] So let's talk about the first power. You call it inflections. What is an inflection? Why does it matter? What does an inflection look like? [15:32] An inflection is an external event [15:35] that creates the potential for radical change in how people think feel and act. [15:40] inflections happen external to any startup or any company for that matter so [15:45] We brought up Lyft a little bit ago.

[15:48] So maybe we'll use them as an example. So [15:51] The inflection that enabled Lyft was the iPhone 4S, [15:56] shipped with a GPS locator chip. [15:58] And [15:59] One of the things that that illustrates is, for example, Moore's law is not an inflection. You know, an improvement curve is not an inflection. [16:07] An inflection I'm a little persnickety about. It's a turning point. [16:11] And so, you know, in math, it's a turning point on a curve where the slope changes. [16:15] But in tech startups, [16:18] It's a point in time [16:20] where something new gets introduced. [16:22] that creates new empowerment for the first time possible. [16:26] And so, you know, people talk about timing and why now. [16:30] inflections for me were the unlock you know you could have [16:33] You could have had the idea for ride sharing before the iPhone 4S, but it wouldn't have mattered because the riders and the drivers wouldn't have been able to locate each other well enough. [16:42] If you'd waited too long after the iPhone 4S, it would have been obvious. [16:46] And so there was this window of time, this magical moment when [16:50] A new type of empowerment was possible for the first time ever. [16:54] And the companies that the founders who understood that [16:57] we're in a position to offer that kind of empowerment [17:01] in the form of a radical product that changed the future. [17:04] To make it even more real for people, what are some other examples of inflections, either in the past or in the present? [17:10] Another example would be [17:12] The camera's getting better on the smartphones. [17:15] which enabled Instagram. So Instagram [17:17] was at the convergence of a few inflections. First of all, there were smartphone adoptions, so there were just more of them.

[17:24] And so they crossed like 10 million [17:26] smartphones, but then you had the cameras getting a lot better. [17:30] you had more of them connected on wi-fi you had the networks having better upload speed [17:36] for smartphones. So all those factors converged. [17:40] and made it possible for [17:42] Instagram to offer a product [17:44] that was good enough to take most of your photos with. [17:47] You know, you didn't start to think, oh, I need a digital camera separate from my smartphone. Now I can just use my smartphone. [17:53] everywhere I go. [17:55] But, you know, Instagram could have come out in... [17:58] uh 2008 it probably wouldn't have worked it probably or wouldn't have worked to the extent that it did you know it's [18:04] Its window of timing was just right. [18:07] What are some other examples? You know, the locator chips in the smartphones, right? [18:11] powered other companies as well powered door dash instacart they [18:15] They had different insights, which we'll get to, right? But they... [18:19] there were lots of different ways to harness that power. [18:22] One thing I love about inflections, and this kind of goes really old school, is, [18:28] is just because you have a power [18:31] doesn't mean you know how to use it right so like um [18:34] The wheel. [18:36] was mounted horizontally [18:38] for like 500 years before somebody mounted it vertically. So originally people used the wheel to make pots. [18:45] And that was a good innovation because it accelerated making bots. [18:49] But then somebody decides to mount it vertically, [18:52] And now you're propelling wagons and, you know, you just change transportation entirely.

[18:58] And so... [18:59] Most people don't realize that the thing that's underneath us or the thing that's in our hands or the thing that's in our pocket [19:06] might have a power [19:08] that win on leash could change the future. And it's one of the very special things about founders that are great. [19:15] is they recognize, they notice things that we don't know. All of us tend to just follow the patterns we've always followed [19:21] Most of us tend to assume that tomorrow will be similar to yesterday. [19:25] But sometimes the founder will notice that [19:27] an inflection. And I find that kind of inspiring because [19:31] Inflections are all around us all the time. [19:34] But most of us just don't bother to look. [19:37] Most of us are [19:39] so busy going about our day to day. [19:41] that we don't notice the emergence of a new empowering thing right under our nose or right in our pockets. [19:47] But some founders do. [19:49] It makes me think about ChatGPT when it came out. [19:51] It was sitting on top of an existing model. [19:54] And it just gave people a new interface to use it. And all of a sudden, everyone went crazy. They're like, oh my god, that's the future. But it was already there. You couldn't chat with it the way that-- [20:03] People wanted to chat. [20:04] yeah you know like um michael sailor once i was talking to him and he said you know the the romans [20:11] could have invented the printing press a lot earlier. They had sandals that would make marks in the mud. [20:16] you could have, in theory, drawn the connection between those marks in the mud and the ability to have movable type and letterpress. [20:23] But nobody did. Right. And so quite often these inflections will go. [20:27] They'll just go unrecognized for a while.

[20:30] But they're always there. Like they're always there. They're there right now. You know, in the ambient atmosphere, there's somebody about to harness an inflection. [20:40] that most of us would just walk right by and never see. [20:44] Wow. [20:45] My mind is racing. What's out there right now? Obviously, AI is top of mind for a lot of people. I know you're stickler for what is an inflection, what is not. Do you consider AI an inflection? [20:55] I would say that I would probably be a little more specific about it. So I might say that certain large language models are an inflection. [21:03] Because like what when I when I think about an inflection and one of the one of the things I emphasize in the book is stress tests. [21:10] So like, it's funny, founders never really come to me and say, hey, can you help me come up with a good idea? Right. They would think they're wheat sauce if they had to. Right. So. [21:18] Usually what's the more common occurrence is they'll say, [21:22] I've got this idea. What do you think about it? And so what I can say to them is it's not my place to have an opinion. [21:27] But like, let me just ask you, [21:29] Does it embody one or more inflections? [21:32] And if it does, there's a few there. We could stress test that we can say, [21:37] What is the specific new thing? [21:39] that was just introduced. [21:40] How does it empower people? [21:43] How does it specifically empower specific people in specific ways? [21:47] And under what conditions might that empowerment be realized? And under what conditions might it not be? Because like, [21:53] Nuclear power has existed for a long, long time, but we haven't built any nuclear power plants in 50 years. [21:59] And so just because you have a power doesn't mean it's going to get used.

[22:04] It could get regulated out of existence. Customers could decide they don't want it. [22:08] And so we want to answer all three things. What's the specific new thing? [22:13] what is the specific form of empowerment it offers and to who [22:17] and under what are the empowerment conditions. So like with the flexion for lift, [22:20] The inflection was the new thing was the iPhone 4S with a GPS chip. [22:25] the empowerment was [22:27] you can locate anyone within one meter accuracy with an algorithm [22:31] And that's going to be pretty much anybody with a smartphone. And that's a lot of people. [22:36] And, you know, in order for this to be met, [22:39] People are going to have to want to share their location information with applications. The government's going to have to not outlaw GPS chips and phones. Apple's going to have to keep wanting to ship GPS chips and phones. [22:50] And we felt like those were pretty reasonable bets, right? We felt like it's pretty likely those empowerment conditions were better. [22:58] Amazing. I was just going to ask for an example. You already provided one. [23:01] What about in terms of Twitch? What was the inflection there? [23:04] I think there were a couple. The first was the... [23:08] the shift towards user-generated content and sort of internet celebrities. Justin Cahn wanted to be an influencer before there was a term to describe it, right? He was really building the product that he wanted for himself. [23:21] But, you know, right before Twitch or right before Justin TV, which was the [23:25] original company, [23:27] Times person of the year had been you and they had YouTube on the cover of the magazine. And so you had [23:33] That was a major turning point in how entertainment was happening.

[23:37] But simultaneously, broadband penetration had reached critical mass. You had [23:42] the CDNs were getting really good and, and, and, and we thought that they would get better. [23:47] And so, you know, you were in a situation where [23:50] the conditions to live stream video for the first time broadly over the internet were being met. [23:56] Whereas, you know, you could have done that even two years before. In fact, Kyle Vogt had to invent some pretty miraculous stuff. [24:03] to even make it work when they did. But you could... [24:06] you could see how, okay, once videos start streaming on the Internet, [24:10] in real time. [24:12] that could be a thing, right? You could just see how that would be a thing if it worked. [24:16] And so I'd say those are the inflection. You know, Airbnb, a company close to both of our hearts for different reasons, [24:23] They benefited, I think, from a couple of things. One was... [24:26] the proliferation of customer reviews online [24:29] and people's trust of reviews. [24:31] as a substitute for trusting the brand of a hotel. [24:34] but then also Facebook Connect. [24:36] made it possible to pass... [24:38] people's profile information. And so the guest and the host... [24:41] didn't quite seem like as much of a stranger as they might have. [24:45] And so there were a few things that happened at the same time. [24:49] And then the great financial crisis. And so you had people [24:52] upside down on their houses needing to find some way to generate income. So [24:56] All of those things came together at the same time to help Airbnb. [25:00] The examples you shared are a good reminder that the inflection doesn't have to be technological. You shared a few of the categories of types of inflections. Can you just do that again? I love that question. And I'm glad you reminded me, right? Because like, like,

[25:12] Here's a really recent example. [25:14] when the laws were changed because of shelter in place for telemedicine visits, you know, [25:20] It used to be illegal to do a telemedicine visit across state lines. [25:25] But now all of a sudden with COVID and shelter at place, [25:29] Not only was it made legal, but it could even be reimbursed by the health care system. [25:34] And so that's an inflection because it empowers patients. [25:38] to access more doctors and it empowers doctors to access more patients [25:43] And it also changes the delivery mechanism in an empowering way. [25:47] In no event was that a technology change, right? That was... [25:50] a regulatory chain that allowed technology to be [25:54] empowering in new ways. But, you know, it was a specific new thing that meets that condition. [25:59] It empowered specific people in specific ways. [26:02] And there was a new set of empowerment conditions that ended up being made. And one of the things that we would ask at the time was, are they going to [26:10] You know, once COVID shelter in place goes away, are they going to revert back to the old laws? And if they did, that would have been a problem. And so that would be the empowerment condition. [26:18] But, you know, it's a fairly robust way of stress testing any inflection, right, is to ask those [26:25] Three or four questions. [26:27] So there's regulatory inflections, big changes in regulation. There's technological. There's also, I think you implied like an attitude, like the way people see. Yeah, there can be a belief inflection, you know. So, for example. [26:38] during COVID, the amount of telemedicine visits [26:41] exploded.

[26:43] And so as a result, there was a permanent change in people's belief about whether they would want to do a telemedicine visit before that. [26:50] The technology was there, but a lot of people just didn't do it. The doctors didn't want to or decide to, the patients didn't want to decide to. [26:57] But now all of a sudden people were doing it. They're like, this is much better. I'd much rather do it this way than go visit the doctor and wait in line and all that stuff. And the doctor's like... [27:05] I'd much rather do this than, you know, [27:08] have these people backed up in my office. [27:11] I would argue that here we are doing a podcast on... [27:15] video platform, right? [27:18] even though it's not zoom i i would say that zoom was another example you know the the idea of um [27:23] People working from home a reasonable number of days a week as a permanent condition, I think, is another factor. [27:29] inflection that happened with COVID. [27:32] And so are those the three, regulatory, technological, and belief? [27:35] Those are the main ones, you know, and I would say that in many ways, it's, um, [27:40] You could say that from a macro point of view, it's two things. It's technology changing technology. [27:46] enablement [27:47] And it's people socially changing their beliefs and their patterns of behavior. [27:53] And either one of those changes can be an inflection because either one of those changes is. [27:58] can represent a turning point in one's capacity to change the future. [28:02] Amazing. Okay. So we've talked about inflection. The next bucket is in the next element of [28:07] breakthrough companies that you found is an insight. Talk about that. [28:11] Yeah, so an insight, unlike an inflection, an insight does come from the founders.

[28:16] An insight, I like to say, is a non-obvious truth. [28:21] about how one or more inflections can be harnessed to change people's behavior. [28:27] So in the example that we gave earlier with Lyft, the inflection was the iPhone 4S. [28:33] insight was, oh, that means you could do Airbnb for cars. [28:38] And so you had to you had to have some type of a creative insight to see that now. [28:43] What was, you know, [28:45] what was non-obvious about it or non-consensus about it [28:48] who's going to want to get in a stranger's car that's crazy right and um [28:53] Thank God. I mean, if there's one piece of goodness about us passing on airbed and breakfast design, [29:00] Ann and I were like, man, you know, nobody's going to want to stay in a stranger's house. That's crazy. [29:04] And at the time, air bed and breakfast, the host and the guest stayed in the house at the same time. And, you know, the host would feed Pop-Tarts or something like that to the guest the next... [29:13] morning. We're like, [29:14] This is right around the time of the Craigslist killings and stuff. We're like, this is just scary, kind of crazy. [29:20] You know, couch surfing is a service, you know. [29:24] But by the time we saw what was Zimride at the time, what became Lyft, [29:29] Ann and I were much more prepared to believe that insight than we would have been, right? Because we'd foolishly passed on Airbnb. [29:37] so that's a really important aspect of insights right so the [29:41] The insight needs to leverage inflections. [29:44] But this is the subtle part. It needs to be non-consensus and right, not just right. So...

[29:50] In the world of opportunities, [29:53] If you're right and consensus, you still don't do that well. [29:57] And [29:58] An idea that is right but consensus is, [30:02] has a couple problems to it. [30:04] One is, if it's consensus... [30:07] it's probably not radical enough. [30:09] Because, you know, when you think about it, human beings are conditioned to like things. [30:14] And so if everybody likes your startup idea, [30:17] It means it's too similar to what they already know and what they're familiar with. [30:21] which means it's probably too similar to the consensus. It's too similar to the incumbents. [30:26] And so the best startup ideas have this trait where [30:29] Most people don't like it. [30:31] or are even hostile to it or just kind of meh about it. [30:35] But some subset of people are just like, oh, my God, where have you been all my life? This is amazing. I love this. But, you know, they fall irrationally in love with the idea. [30:44] And so most of the great startups that I've seen have that attribute to them. And the reason is, [30:51] that a great startup [30:53] Unlike a conventional company that proposes the future as an extension of the present, [30:59] So that, [31:00] Normal companies forecast. They say, I'm going to look forward from the present and forward project what the future will be. [31:07] great founders, pattern breakers, backcasts. They say, [31:10] It's it's it's a it's a given that the future has to be radically different for me to be a big winner. [31:16] And so I'm going to look for radically different futures. [31:20] and work backwards from those radically different futures.

[31:23] And so the radically different future comes from that thinking different. [31:27] thinking non-consensus, [31:29] And then it's the different actions that get you to say, okay, now I'm out in this different future. [31:34] But right now, I'm all alone in this different future. I have to get people to come join me in that different future. [31:40] And I have to find people who are ready to move with me to that different future, [31:44] And that's where the pattern breaking actions come in. And like, not everybody's going to move at first. And so I can't waste my time with people who won't move. I can't waste time. [31:53] any ergs of energy on anybody other than those ready to move or about to move. [31:57] And then I need to co-create the future with those early believers. [32:01] And so great startups happen [32:04] when a subset of people in this world buy into the founders insight. [32:09] and then move with them to co-create that future project. [32:12] And then eventually what was a heresy happened. [32:14] becomes the conventional wisdom is more and more people start to realize the advantage of it. [32:19] There's so many threads I want to follow here. One is the Airbnb story. Interestingly enough, I had Jessica Livingston on the podcast recently, and you probably know this, but Paul Graham and her did not like the Airbnb. [32:28] idea. They all like, that's a terrible idea. We're going to assume they will change the idea, but we love the founders. We're going to take a bet on it. [32:35] So I was introduced to the guys by Michael Seibel, [32:39] from who was one of the co-founders of Justin TV Twitch. [32:42] And Michael introduced me to Brian Chesky before they applied to Y Combinator. [32:48] So, like, Michael's like, they're not even close to ready to apply to YC. [32:52] But like, you know, he thought that I was maybe would think that it was the right kind of crazy. I get pitched by a lot of like, you know, I'm not very off put by crazy ideas. I could see why. So it was in the meeting was totally discombobulated. Right. It's a room full of cereal boxes. I'm like.

[33:09] What's up with this? Why is there cereal here? [33:12] And then he can't get the product to work. [33:14] So we're like 20, and I'm like, okay, that's okay. Let's just look at the slides. And he goes, well, Michael Seibel told me that [33:20] you don't like slides, you like demos. I was like, that's true. But, [33:23] Not working. So we're like 20 minutes into this meeting in a room full of cereal boxes just looking at each other. [33:28] And, you know, you can't win them all, right? You win some, you lose some. I wouldn't blame myself if I were you. [33:36] here's the other thing that's hilarious about airbnb so like [33:40] They do this thing because they can't pay their rent. [33:43] They put up this WordPress site to pay for their rent because there's a design conference in San Francisco. [33:48] In the meantime, they're brainstorming startup ideas. So they wanted to do a startup together. [33:53] But like never occurred to them at first that air bed and breakfast was like the startup idea. They're like, we just need to use that to make money so we can go do a real startup. [34:03] And so that's the irony, too, right, is that, you know, you look back on it and almost smile at the fact that they didn't they didn't know what they even had at first. You know, it was almost an accident. [34:13] There's a lesson there of... [34:15] Like you find something that works and even if you don't think it's a big idea don't take that for granted. [34:21] Oh, I very agree. And the other thing, the other great lesson is, [34:26] You don't want your initial startup bets to be too big to fail. [34:29] You want ideas that are small enough to fail a lot. [34:34] Because, you know, you don't want to be attached to success. You want to be able to just try things and play with stuff. [34:39] and tinker with things.

[34:41] because you don't really know where the fractal of new insight is going to reveal itself. [34:47] uh and so you know there is a little bit of play to this [34:50] that I think is pretty important. [34:52] Do you remember what some of the ideas they were brainstorming, by the way? [34:56] I don't. I wonder if even they do. Right. Probably not. Probably the Airbnb story. Your book. [35:03] I feel like them failing in your demo helped prepare them for YC, and that's what helped them get in. So I think that you're a big part of their story. And to make it even more painful, like I'm in the book, right? Somebody – [35:15] I called my wife, Julie, the other day and said, is that your husband in the Airbnb story? [35:20] And we get the book and there's a chapter and it talks about how hard it was to raise money. [35:25] And they weren't dissing on me as a dumb VC. They were like, you know, [35:29] look how bad we were at presenting this at first right it was just a complete [35:33] "catastrophe presentation, [35:35] But [35:37] That's another good lesson for me, too. I learned a very permanent lesson from that, which is, [35:42] just because the presentation is good or bad, it has nothing to do with whether you should necessarily invest or not. Sometimes, [35:49] You have to be awake to the possibility of what it's going to be, regardless of how messed up the presentation is. [35:55] What was their evaluation at that point? [35:57] Oh, God. This hurts to... [36:01] I think he offered me a chance to invest in a $1.5 million valuation. [36:06] Another $100 billion business. Oh, yeah. I would have made like 6,000 times more money or something like that. Okay, great. Thank God I said yes to Twitter and Just TV and Facebook.

[36:18] You know, we said yes to Lyft and Okta because if we'd seen all of those and passed on all of them, you know, I'd be apoplectic. [36:28] that's i think that's what's interesting about your uh stage of investing is you [36:32] You just need a couple to work out for it. [36:34] Yeah, that's right. And by the way, it's true when you're a founder, too. If you do this right, you only have to be right once. [36:42] Right. And so that's that's really important. [36:45] Coming back to the insights lesson, one thing that you brought up when we were chatting about this is the importance of being surprised and the power of surprises. Can you talk a bit about that? [36:54] Yeah, so there's a couple of things about insights that I think are really important, and this is one of them. [36:59] I believe that there can't be a recipe for breakthroughs. [37:04] So, you know, and why is that? Well, [37:07] recipes exist for things that have already been discovered [37:10] So if I give you a recipe for making a cake, somebody has probably made that cake right before the exact way they're defining it. [37:18] And so breakthroughs, though, by definition, haven't happened yet. They haven't been discovered, right now. [37:24] the general theory of relativity had to be discovered by Einstein, right? And, and, [37:28] The idea for ride sharing had to be discovered by the ride share companies or [37:33] Airbnb by Chesky and Nate, those guys. [37:37] And so... [37:38] What you want to adopt is the right mindset. [37:42] And how do you adopt the right mindset? You interact with new technologies at the cutting edge [37:48] but you actively savor surprises.

[37:52] And when you think about it, when you think about it through the lens of a breakthrough and what we just said, [37:56] it makes sense because if you want to find a breakthrough you want to be surprised [38:01] you want to discover the undiscovered you want to know something you didn't know before [38:07] Because if all you do is an experiment that proves, that validates what you think, [38:13] You didn't really learn anything when you think about it. [38:16] You know, you just doubled down on your existing understanding or opinion. [38:20] I learned this lesson from Scott Cook, who was the founder of Intuit. [38:24] Whenever he would be presented a new product... [38:27] people would present [38:28] the idea to him and he would say, [38:30] What were your three biggest surprises as you were coming up with this plan? [38:35] and what he would find is quite often they couldn't name any. [38:38] And he felt like when people can't name the surprises they came up with, [38:42] they're too brain locked on what they want. They have, they have the agenda they have, they want validation. And, [38:48] rather than truth-seeking. [38:51] And so, like, if you're an authentic truth seeker, you're always... [38:54] hoping to be surprised and you think of surprise as a gift [38:58] Because you think, wow, maybe I encountered that surprise before anybody ever has. [39:03] And so so that's kind of what we mean. And you want to [39:06] construct your experiments, [39:08] so that you're in a position to be surprised so a good example [39:12] would have been what the guys at Chegg did. So Chegg was... [39:15] wanting to see if people would do textbook rentals. [39:18] So they created a fake site called Textbook Flicks. [39:21] But here's where Osman and Ayush were very savvy.

[39:26] rather than just test whether people would rent a $100 textbook for $35, [39:31] They... [39:32] tested an arbitrary set of prices. [39:35] all the way up to $75. And so they had the demand preference curve at different prices. And Textbook Flix wasn't a real site, so you'd get to the shopping cart that would give you a 404 error. [39:45] But we could tell that people wanted to rent textbooks. And the surprise was that they would rent them for more than we thought. We thought, [39:52] we need to get at least 35, but some students were willing to pay 75. [39:56] And so that understanding was huge. If we'd only done an experiment to validate the hypothesis of, [40:02] Yes, well, they ran it for $35,000. [40:04] Our pricing model would have been totally different from, oh, wow. [40:08] And when you think about it, it makes sense. Like the student didn't want to keep the textbook, you know, econ 101, I'm going to give it back anyway. [40:15] So 75 bucks is less than a hundred. I can buy beer with the extra money. [40:19] So that would be an example of the surprise. But, um, [40:23] Most of the startups that have had great outcomes, I find, [40:27] There was a kind of a surprise like that, right? [40:30] Being non-consensus is not the same as being contrarian. [40:33] Being contrarian is another form of conformity because it's still relative to somebody else. [40:39] Most of the great founders I see, they almost feel guilty that they found this secret. [40:44] But they earned the secret by... [40:46] tinkering with the future and noticing surprises [40:50] and having their noticing filter tuned to like volume 11, [40:54] where most of us wouldn't notice it. Most of us would just pass the secret right by because we're looking to validate what we think is already true.

[41:02] You referenced this term that is also one I love that you use occasionally, this earned secret. [41:08] Can you talk a bit about that? It's basically the same idea that you uncovered something by trying things that no one else has seen yet. Is that the general idea? So to me, secrets are earned. [41:17] A lot of people, I think, have the wrong idea of what vision is. A lot of people tend to think visionaries, it's like they have a special pair of binoculars. [41:26] And they can look out farther than the rest of us can. [41:29] But in my experience, that's not how inventions really happen. The way inventions happen is... [41:35] People get their hands dirty. [41:37] And they learn about what's missing in the future because they're [41:43] They're getting their hands dirty with what's new about it. [41:46] And so they earn the secret. [41:49] by going down this rabbit hole of... [41:53] exploring something at the cutting edge for its own sake. [41:56] And they become like, just like I'm a train spotter for startups, they become a train spotter for this new thing that they're excited about. [42:04] And, you know, they frustrate the people around them. They'll be at a party. [42:07] And everybody's talking about the basketball game and the Celtics against the Mavs. [42:12] And somehow that reminds them of the fact that they want to test prices for textbook rounds. [42:17] And it's like, but they're that interested. It's the last thing they think about when they go to bed. The first thing they think about when they wake up. [42:24] And so that's where I find most of the really great earned secrets come from. [42:28] they're earned in the sense that you earn them by getting your hands dirty and you earn them by

[42:34] being awake to the possibility that secrets are there or that just most people aren't looking. [42:39] This connects with that stat that you shared that 80% of your biggest returning investments came from a pivot. [42:45] It all connects where you're just trying stuff, you're learning, seeing things people haven't tried. That's right. In the early days of product market fit, I like to say we want to answer a very simple but profound question. [42:56] What can we uniquely offer that people are desperate for? [43:00] And if we have an insight, that makes us unique. [43:03] Now, if a customer doesn't like your idea, [43:08] A couple of things could be true. One is your insight could be wrong. [43:12] If your insight's wrong, you don't have a startup, right? You should just stop. [43:15] The other thing, though, that could be true is your implementation is wrong. [43:19] So like you had the right insight. So like Okta, [43:23] At first, they wanted to do cloud systems management. They thought that they needed to do problem resolution. [43:28] But when they showed it to customers, they were kind of meh about it. [43:32] And they said, well, what, you know, why are you mad about this? And they said, well, it's not a top priority. And they said, what is your top priority? And they said, identity management. [43:39] So they had the right insight, which was [43:42] Customers would struggle to manage cloud services [43:45] but they had the wrong implementation of the insight. So then they came back with identity management. It worked. So, [43:51] you know, [43:52] if somebody doesn't like your idea, [43:55] If they're not desperate for it, [43:56] Either the insights wrong, the implementations wrong or [44:00] you could be talking to the wrong customer, right? Like some people that Okta talked to wanted to integrate it with on-prem software.

[44:07] And in that case, their opinion's irrelevant because they're not an innovative customer. They're not living in the future. [44:14] they're not going to give you product requirement ideas that, [44:17] are additive to your strategy. [44:19] And so, you know, you want to be right insight, right inflections. [44:23] right implementation, right early believers that you're talking to as you iterate towards product market. [44:29] And if you're not succeeding at product market fit, then it's one of those, one or more of those variables isn't working yet. [44:37] I think this might be a good time to remind people that you don't need to have every one of these [44:41] for your business to potentially be a huge success [44:44] It's more that the more you have, the more likely it is that you will find something massive. [44:49] Is that right? That's right. And it's like this is the hard part about being non consensus and right is. [44:55] you don't know for sure that you're right at first. [44:58] You only know that you're non-consensus. [45:00] And so you have to be willing to risk being wrong to be spectacularly right. [45:05] And so what you're trying to do, though, is pursue opportunities [45:09] where the odds are massively in your favor. And so I kind of return back to business is never a fair fight. [45:16] And so if I'm a founder, there's a universe of ideas I can pursue. [45:20] The mistake that a lot of founders make [45:23] And it's very understandable. They say, I want to go after big market opportunities. So they analyze big markets. [45:28] They find unserved customers. [45:31] with unmet needs, [45:32] in under addressed markets. So then they go build a product to go solve that problem.

[45:38] and and that's very appealing because it seems obvious and the dots connect forward in an obvious way [45:44] But unwittingly, it buys into a context. It buys into... [45:48] the current definition of the market, [45:50] which was already set by the incumbents. [45:52] And so what you instead want to do [45:54] is pursue a slightly more ambiguous opportunity [45:58] but one that harnesses these powers. Ones where you look at the inflection, you say, wow, that's really powerful. [46:03] you look at the inside and you say, yeah, I know that this is going to be in the future. I know [46:08] that this is where things are going to be radically different someday. [46:11] I would rather have those things present [46:14] and be willing to pivot the product. [46:17] than not have those things and have a much clearer idea of what the product should be. [46:22] Funny enough, one of my biggest investment successes did exactly [46:26] what you're saying you shouldn't do, which is they looked at a huge market with a bad incumbent and built something better and it's working. [46:32] But I think [46:34] Again, it's not that you can't win that way. [46:36] Your point and your research shows that your chances are a lot higher [46:40] doing something totally different. [46:42] That's right. And I would bet that this company, I don't know enough about it. I don't know what it is. Right. But it wouldn't surprise me if they harnessed inflections in some way. [46:51] That was disorienting to the incumbent. It wouldn't surprise me if they found a way to use deflections to fight an unfair bite. [46:57] what I try to do with the insights is I realized there was a theory behind it, like a, [47:02] A theory is not a recipe, it's an explanation. [47:05] And what inflections let the founder do is wage asymmetric warfare on presidents.

[47:10] And the insight is like the vessel. [47:13] that they use, right? It's kind of like the rock is the inflection, the slingshot is the insight. [47:19] that they shoot at david or david shoots goliath right and so [47:23] So that's what we're looking for. We're looking to create the conditions that [47:27] where we're going to get to play an unfair game by unfair rule favor us. [47:31] Great segue to the third bucket, the third element of breakthrough companies, future founder fit. What is that? Yeah. So this is one of my favorites. So a lot of times people will say what makes a great founder. And there are some common traits, right? [47:46] passion for the idea [47:48] persistence, resilience, [47:51] you know all all these things right that people talk about passion for the users [47:56] But what I find is that there's no canonical best founder, right? So, [48:01] Mark Andreessen started Netscape as a programmer making minimum wage at the University of Illinois. [48:07] And everybody thought the digital highway at the time was going to come from Time Warner or from Microsoft Network or from the U.S. government. [48:16] Nobody thought that some kid was going to do it from the bottoms up. [48:20] But it turns out that Mark was tinkering with a set of inflections around the World Wide Web [48:25] And, you know, right around that time, Microsoft – [48:28] They reduced a better version of Windows. And right around that time, the Pentium processor came out. So there were more and more people had graphical user interface computers, [48:37] at the very time that browsing started to happen. [48:40] But.

[48:41] Let's take another company more recent, Applied Intuition, makes a [48:45] simulation software for autonomous vehicles. [48:48] If you're going to sell a giant contract to the CEO of a car company, [48:53] he needs to look at you across the table and think these guys can do the job right so you [48:58] you know, Kasser and [49:00] Peter had been [49:01] They'd grown up in Detroit, in Michigan, [49:04] They had worked at car companies in the past, the big three, [49:09] And then they worked inside of Google at Waymo and Google Maps. [49:13] and so and they'd had a successful startup before and so if you looked [49:17] What is a team from Central Casting to do this? [49:20] it would be them [49:22] And so what I mean by founder future fit is, [49:25] There's a set of traits that a founder can have that make them ideally suited to a certain type of future. [49:32] Sometimes they're really young first time founders, Mark Zuckerberg. [49:36] Bill Gates, Paul Allen, you know, we just gave the example of Mark Andreessen. [49:42] In that case, usually they're at the cutting edge of a new technology [49:45] and they have a beginner's mind [49:47] And they aren't even encumbered by the old way of looking things. It's like... [49:51] The entire world lives in Cartesian coordinates and they discover polar coordinates. [49:56] And they don't even have to translate between the two because they never understood Cartesian coordinates. [50:01] And so in that case, [50:03] their knowledge about the future is more valuable to success than their knowledge as business people. [50:09] But in the case of like applied intuition,

[50:12] If you're selling very large contracts, enterprise customers, they need to believe that you can do the job. If you're Okta and you're doing identity management, [50:20] for cloud customers. [50:22] they're going to trust Todd McKinnon from Salesforce. [50:25] way before they're going to trust a college dropout to do that job. [50:29] And so I like to say founder future fed is, [50:32] you know, [50:33] Who knows the most about this future? [50:36] who has the most intrinsic motivation to pursue it, [50:40] Who has the best network and keep the best company working? [50:44] in that ecosystem of the future. [50:46] Those are the types of things that, you know, [50:50] founders that show up differently on those dimensions usually do better. [50:55] because they're more likely to understand what to build in the first place. [50:58] And they're more likely to convince early believers to believe in their ideas in the first place. [51:04] So it's not that these people have some vision of the future that is more [51:09] accurate or more incredible than everyone else. It's [51:12] that their background and even the way they look [51:15] matches the problem that they're going after. So in this applied intuition... [51:18] You're saying like the founders look like people that a CEO of GM would be like, I trust these people to build this thing for me. Yeah, I like to, you know, Louis Pasteur once said chance favors the prepared mind. And when I started working on this book for the first time, I really understood what he meant. [51:36] Right? Like, [51:38] Chance favors the prepared mind because a prepared mind,

[51:43] attracts luck. [51:44] A prepared mind is better positioned to notice a breakthrough than other minds. [51:50] And a prepared mind sees the breakthrough, sees around the corner, [51:55] because they're thinking about the subject all the time. [51:57] And so like most people think that the way you come up with good startup ideas is try to think of a startup. [52:04] And I like to say, no, that's exactly wrong. [52:06] What you do to come up with great startup ideas as you live in the future, [52:11] And you notice what's missing in the future. And it's like, [52:14] It's axiomatic. If you're living in the future, there will be unbuilt missing things, because if it was all built, you'd be living in the present. [52:22] And so if you're living in the future, [52:25] and you notice what's missing, [52:27] your intuition about what to build is far more likely to be right. So like, you know, [52:33] Andreessen didn't do the Mosaic browser because he thought there was a market for browsers or he didn't even know about a digital highway. [52:41] He was trying to make the Internet immediately more useful for him. [52:44] and his team [52:46] And his intuition about what to build was very good because he was building the thing he wanted that was missing in the world. [52:52] In the case of Okta, they knew all the early Salesforce customers. [52:56] But the principle still applies, right? Those customers weren't equal. [53:01] They were lighthouse because it was kind of like when I was at Silicon Graphics. [53:04] I didn't spend time with [53:06] normal movie studios, I spent time with industrial light and magic because I thought, [53:11] If we solve their problem, they're going to take us to the promised land. All the stuff we build for industrial light magic will be the stuff that everybody wants someday.

[53:19] And so like not all customers are equal. You want to find customers that live in the future. [53:23] I love this point. JustinTV is another great example of this where [53:27] He'll just assume the future. Everyone's going to be watching each other's reality shows. He built his own backpack with a camera and a sight just to stream himself. Yeah, and the Justin TV example is a great one, too, because in Justin TV, he built the thing that he wished he had. [53:41] even though it was a terrible idea [53:43] but it embodied [53:44] attributes that embody these inflections of these insights [53:48] that led them ultimately to twitch [53:51] Ironically, Justin's second company, Atrium, [53:54] Most people thought that that made sense. Automating legal tasks and [53:59] you know, Justin's a great founder. [54:02] But Justin just didn't like the legal field. He had no passion for it. When he started Atrium, his passion was to be a higher-status founder. [54:10] And I've got a podcast with him recently where he talks about this, where he's like, [54:14] I wanted to be as big as Patrick Collison and Brian Chesky and, [54:18] Drew Houston. [54:20] But it turns out that's not a very good reason to start a company, right? Like, [54:24] Founder Future Fit is ultimately about authenticity. [54:27] And it's about who is the most authentically matched for that different radical future. [54:32] And whoever that team is, [54:35] has a really big head start at getting product market fit. And product market fit is the game, right? Whoever gets it first wins. [54:42] This episode is brought to you by Webflow. We're all friends here, so let's be real for a second. We all know that your website shouldn't be a static asset. It should be a dynamic part of your strategy that drives conversions. That's business 101. But here's a number for you. 54% of leaders say web updates take too long. That's over half of you listening right now. That's where Webflow comes in.

[55:12] pages fast. That means you can set ambitious business goals and your site can rise to the challenge. [55:18] Learn how teams like Dropbox, IDEO, and Orange Theory trust Webflow to achieve their most ambitious goals today at webflow.com. [55:28] Okay, so... [55:29] There's inflections. [55:31] There's insights, there's future founder fit, [55:33] To make this super real for, say, a product manager sitting at a company right now, I want to start a startup. [55:39] or someone just starting to ideate on ideas, [55:42] What are some things that you recommend they start to do [55:45] This week, next month to start to find a big idea or to start an idea. It doesn't have to be a big idea, an idea that'll take up somewhere. The number one thing I like to say is get out of the present. [55:56] And so like what what you know, people talk about getting out of the building. And of course, we should. [56:02] but getting out of the present is a little bit more subtle than that right so [56:07] William Gibson was right, you know, when he said the future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed. [56:14] So most great startup ideas [56:17] come from the future. [56:18] that exists right now today. [56:21] And so what I like to say to people, and this is a question that I always ask when I'm pitched, [56:27] Is this from the future? [56:29] And, you know... [56:30] And then some people will say to me, like, [56:33] hey i have a mental health startup mental health is a huge problem it needs to be solved and i'll say [56:37] Why is your idea from the future? Well, in the future, I believe mental health needs to be solved. I'm like, that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking people.

[56:45] What part of the future have you been living in that gives you the right to have an opinion about the future? [56:52] So I like to say, if you're not living in the future, your opinion about it isn't valid. [56:57] It's kind of like saying, I think a customer will do X and you've never talked to a customer. [57:01] I'm like, okay, your opinion's interesting, but irrelevant. [57:04] And so the only relevant future, the only relevant opinions about [57:09] The future. [57:10] come from people who are living in it. [57:12] And coming from people who understand what's new about it in a very visceral way. [57:17] and and you know there are people who do a good job of this right like maddie hall [57:21] who started Living Carbid. She was working at Zenefit. [57:24] And at first she tried to think of a startup [57:27] And she had ideas that weren't that good. She had a laser tag idea and a few other things. [57:32] But then she decided to go follow Sam Altman for a year and be his chief of staff. [57:36] And Sam Altman visits the future multiple times a day with people. [57:41] And so that's what led her to this idea that for living carbon, which does genetically modified trees. [57:47] But, I mean, couldn't be farther away from Zenefit. [57:51] But she saw... [57:53] Microsoft was about to spend a lot of money. A bunch of other companies about to spend a lot of money on carbon takeout. [57:58] She saw that the genetic engineering technology was getting good enough that you could engineer these trees. [58:04] She married the inflections with the need. [58:07] And then off she went, but she was, you know, [58:09] basically sampling a lot of different futures. [58:12] until she found one that she liked. [58:15] I love that example because it

[58:16] makes it very real what living in the future looks like. So one is spend time with people [58:21] that are very far along on some [58:24] edge of technology or the way people behave. Another you shared is a work with a company like say, uh, [58:30] that you work with at Silicon Graphics. [58:32] Yep. Industrial Light and Magic. Industrial Light and Magic. [58:34] Yeah. [58:35] Yeah, so McCracken had a term for it that I've always liked, lighthouse customers. [58:41] And so like a lighthouse has this light that shines out and unobscures the fog. [58:46] And not all customers are equal. [58:48] and some customers are living in the future, [58:51] And those customers are gold. [58:53] And those customers will, if you solve their problems, [58:56] needs, [58:57] take you to the promised land. [58:59] And so like, so yeah, you can, you can, you can build what's missing for yourself like Andreessen did or Zuckerberg or. [59:06] Steve Wozniak or Bill Gates. [59:08] Or you can build something for Lighthouse customers you have a good relationship with. [59:14] Or if you can do neither of those things. The number one question I get asked is, hey, that's great if you live in a supercomputer lab or if you, you know, were selling to Dust for Light or Magic or like all the Salesforce companies. [59:26] customers. [59:27] I'm not one of those. I'm a second year student at Stanford Business School. I'm a product manager at Company X. I'm, you know, whatever the case may be. [59:35] That's where the Maddie Hall example is really powerful because Maddie, [59:38] proactively got out of the present in a very intentional way. [59:43] So I love her example as a case study.

[59:47] What signs tell you that a company is one of these lighthouse companies living in the future? A person is just like you just feel it like they're so far ahead of everyone else. Usually it has to do with how tech forward they are. [59:59] There was a time when a lot of people didn't think the cloud was going to be a thing because it was insecure and I'm not going to host my important data and let somebody else have it. [1:00:09] But there were a set of customers who were really excited about the cloud, and they tended to adopt certain kinds of products. [1:00:15] when I used to [1:00:16] work in client server startups, [1:00:19] you knew that the early adopters were people who were using like relational database servers and [1:00:24] scalable front-end programming interfaces and things like that you know we're trying to have distributed apps that they would roll out you know you could [1:00:34] you could tell who was trying to play offense with the new trends. [1:00:38] Awesome. [1:00:39] Okay, before we move on into actions, is there anything else you think might be useful to share in terms of helping people come up with an idea, find a great idea? [1:00:48] The number one thing about the ideas goes back to not playing the comparison game. [1:00:55] So, [1:00:56] The thing that I see people underestimate when they come up with ideas is, [1:01:01] is the threshold of desperation required. [1:01:04] in the customer, right? So like, like, um, [1:01:07] If. [1:01:08] We want to solve problems for desperate people. And it's like. [1:01:12] If we have powerful inflections that really empower [1:01:16] And we have something unique.

[1:01:18] There should be somebody who is irresistibly drawn to that empowerment. [1:01:22] they should say, oh my God, [1:01:24] this is incredible. This is a game changer. I can't unsee that. [1:01:28] Why is that important? [1:01:30] I like to say that if a customer has the ability [1:01:34] to do something other than what you do to solve their problem. [1:01:37] They won't be crazy enough to do business with a startup. [1:01:40] right so customer has to be so desperate that when they see what you have [1:01:45] They're like, I've got to have it. [1:01:47] And so I like to say, [1:01:49] you want to force a choice and not a comparison. If everybody's selling apples, [1:01:53] I can't be a 10 times better apple. I want to be the world's first banana. [1:01:57] And I want to say to people, you may not want bananas. You may not like them. You may not value the advantage of bananas. [1:02:04] But if you value banananness... [1:02:06] I'm the only person that's gone. [1:02:08] And it's like, you know, come to pop up. [1:02:11] Right. And so that's like an insight feels like that. [1:02:14] And in the early days, [1:02:16] Don't spend any of your time with people who love apples because they're not you're not going to convince them. [1:02:22] and they're going to waste your time. What you want to do is find it. [1:02:24] Everybody in the world values the advantages of bananas. [1:02:28] As soon as possible, not wasting any time on the people who don't. [1:02:32] And so I'd say that that kind of wraps up the idea of insights. Is it like we want to force a choice and not a comparison? [1:02:39] you know, [1:02:40] Nobody looks at the Tesla Cybertruck and says, oh, yeah, well, how does that compare to a Ford F-150? [1:02:46] and you may hate the cyber truck you may think it's stupid

[1:02:49] But nobody's neutral about the Cybertruck, right? You want to have a product that people can't be neutral about. [1:02:56] but that the people who have magnetized positively to it, [1:03:00] just can't imagine a world without. [1:03:02] I love that. Going back to your banana example, [1:03:05] You want just a few people to be just like, I need that banana no matter how much you're [1:03:09] charging. That's right. And, you know, even if it's halfway right, [1:03:13] Even, you know, it's like, you know, because that's the other thing, right? They need to be willing to tolerate the fact that. [1:03:18] that you can't execute very well because like, [1:03:21] How could a startup execute really well? They have no resources. [1:03:24] and so like the only chance for a startup to win [1:03:29] is to win on a playing field where better doesn't matter. [1:03:32] where execution isn't as important [1:03:35] as, gotta have that thing, I'll take any version of it you give me, because I am desperate for it. [1:03:41] Speaking of execution, [1:03:43] Good segue to the second part of the chat. [1:03:46] which is basically you looked into what do the most successful companies and founders do differently. [1:03:52] And you also found three core things that they all do and many of them do. [1:03:57] movements, storytelling, disagreeableness. [1:04:00] Let's talk about each one. [1:04:02] Pick whichever one you want to start with. [1:04:03] Yeah, so, you know, we've talked about thinking different. [1:04:08] But it's like the problem, though, is that – [1:04:11] You know, asking people to abandon the familiar for an uncertain tomorrow is, [1:04:16] is a provocative act. [1:04:18] All startups are fundamentally disagreeable.

[1:04:21] There are disagreement with how things are done. There are disagreement with the pattern of what is. [1:04:26] And so, uh, [1:04:27] We need, as founders, to persuade others to change their habits, [1:04:32] with our pattern breaking actions and so [1:04:35] What the pattern-breaking founder does is they create a stark dichotomy [1:04:40] between the world that is and the world that could be. [1:04:44] And they create an irresistible desire on the part of early believers to move to that different future with them. [1:04:50] And so, you know, I like to say there are three aspects to acting different. Right. One is movements. [1:04:55] The other is storytelling and the other is a disagreeableness. [1:04:59] And so like the movement piece is the front and center piece because like, [1:05:04] Most people, when they think of movements, they think of it as more like social movements, like civil rights movement, Martin Luther King, or they think of. [1:05:11] you know there's artistic movements like cubism and picasso [1:05:15] But, like, fundamentally... [1:05:16] A movement is a different way of developing a market [1:05:20] than how most marketing people think about developing marketing. [1:05:24] Most people, when they think about marketing, they think, okay, I've got a set of targets. I've got a set of programs. I've got inbound and outbound. I've got these things I need to do. [1:05:33] What a movement does is it [1:05:35] It leverages a grievance of a minority against the tyranny of a majority. [1:05:42] And it takes that and animates it in a way [1:05:45] that those early believers are emotionally committed to moving. [1:05:50] So like, um,

[1:05:51] Early customers are not animated by pragmatism. They're animated by belief. [1:05:57] Early customers, early employees, early investors [1:06:02] don't decide to go into business with you [1:06:06] because of the practical reasons that you unlock. [1:06:09] They do it for aesthetic reasons. They do it because they believe what you believe. [1:06:13] And so a movement is basically [1:06:16] a set of people with the same belief moving together. [1:06:20] to a different future. [1:06:22] And when you think about it, it's equally the same, right, for the civil rights movement. [1:06:27] And a movement... [1:06:28] is a way to crystallize the choice. Like if you're, [1:06:31] If you believe in civil rights, you can't be half in on that. You either believe... [1:06:36] that it should be about the content of people's character, not their skin color. You can't be sort of not racist, right? You either believe or you don't believe. [1:06:45] And, you know, the people who followed Martin Luther King... [1:06:50] bought into the aesthetically better future that is movement [1:06:54] promised. [1:06:55] and it turns out and i don't mean to equate that was a pretty important movement right it's like some movements [1:07:01] are more frivolous, you know, like say an artistic movement, [1:07:04] But the notion is similar in that [1:07:07] There's a set of early believers who believe they've been enlightened about something, [1:07:11] that the rest of the world doesn't get yet. [1:07:13] And they think that the startup founder... [1:07:16] is sort of like the prime mover of that movement. [1:07:19] And then what happens is that startup markets happen

[1:07:23] because the movements accumulate and accelerate and more and more people join them. [1:07:28] And what was once heresy becomes the accepted conventional wisdom. And now the company is no longer a startup, it's a company. [1:07:34] And now all of a sudden it is a valid market and all of a sudden they're the status quo and they got to watch out for the next. [1:07:40] set of disruptors. So the movement is the first [1:07:43] key thing, I think, in all of this. Is there an example? Lift obviously comes to mind with this. The pink mustache is just this is the future. [1:07:50] Yeah, ride sharing was a movement. [1:07:52] In my early days starting Floodgate with Ann, [1:07:57] We thought that seed investing was a movement. [1:07:59] And so we thought that there was going to be a day where seed funds would be a permanent feature of the venture landscape. [1:08:06] But people didn't believe that in the late 2000s. And so we're like, [1:08:10] Not enough that we just [1:08:12] succeed and invest in good companies. [1:08:15] we need to get the best LPs in the world. [1:08:17] to buy into this, right? We need to get [1:08:19] Phil Horsley at Horsley Bridge and [1:08:22] Dave Swenson at Yale and people who, you know, are respected in the ecosystem to say, yeah, I buy into that. [1:08:29] And so it was really important to us [1:08:32] to get the right early believers in our movement. You know, Judith Elsie at Weather Gage had just [1:08:37] a new firm [1:08:39] One of my favorite examples is actually an old one, Clarence Birdseye. [1:08:43] So, you know, you go into the supermarket and there's frozen food aisle. [1:08:47] Well, [1:08:47] Clarets Birdseye discovered how to flash freeze food when he was up in the Arctic looking at Eskimos. [1:08:53] and they were flash freezing their fish, and he wondered, could you do it for other things? And he found out you could, fruits and vegetables.

[1:08:59] But like, [1:09:00] It wasn't enough to just flash freeze the fish. [1:09:03] or the fruits or the vegetables. You had to convince the trains to have a refrigerated car. You had to convince the supermarket to have a refrigerated aisle. [1:09:11] And so he had to start a movement. [1:09:14] where a whole lot of people simultaneously believed in this idea of being able to [1:09:19] eat food in a more convenient way not always in season not always [1:09:23] grown locally from where you were. [1:09:26] And so all movements have that characteristic where you're, [1:09:29] you know, you kind of start with a higher purposed [1:09:32] And then you move people to that different future. [1:09:35] I'm trying to think about what are current movements that are happening when... [1:09:38] that might be a movement is... [1:09:40] with LLMs, just this bet that Transformers are the future of how this is going to work, that [1:09:46] Just more compute is the answer versus trying to find something else. Does that sound right? Another one that I really like is Tesla. So like Tesla's mission says... [1:09:55] Accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy. [1:09:59] They don't even say they're a car company. [1:10:01] Right. So like Tesla doesn't say, here's why we're better than Ford and Toyota. [1:10:05] And this is really important, right? Because [1:10:08] The great movements do appeal to a higher purpose. [1:10:12] They don't say, I'm better than company X. [1:10:15] You know, I'm Avis, I try harder than hurt. [1:10:18] They appeal to a more aesthetically... [1:10:21] Higher Purpose Future. [1:10:23] And then they show that this startup is the vehicle for that movement to be actualized. [1:10:28] which is kind of a good segue to storytelling.

[1:10:31] One other quick example, I'm thinking about linear... [1:10:34] is kind of pushing this movement of craft and design and experience matters in b2b software [1:10:39] And you shouldn't settle for something that you don't love. [1:10:41] Very much so. And you know what? Chesky, this was, I don't think he even knew he was fully doing this at the time. [1:10:47] But Chesky did this brilliantly with Airbnb. [1:10:51] So he created a movement around living like a local. [1:10:54] And so the other thing that a movement does is it turns the greatest strength of the status quo into its biggest weakness. [1:11:01] And so like, [1:11:02] Brian never said hotels suck, you know, death to the Four Seasons. [1:11:07] He just said, hey, look, you know, when you go to Paris... [1:11:09] You have a choice. You can hang out in the Four Seasons, and it's going to be just like the Four Seasons everywhere else in the world. [1:11:15] It'll be in the middle of the town. [1:11:17] Or you can live in Paris like a Parisian. [1:11:20] And he's like, I don't have to say that the Four Seasons is bad for you to decide to choose me. [1:11:26] And oh, by the way, if you want to stay in the same kind of hotel everywhere you go, I'm not for you. [1:11:31] But so like, [1:11:32] Now let's say you're Four Seasons, [1:11:34] your whole business is predicated on doing a good job of having a common experience that people can accept and that they're used to that they [1:11:41] Expect. [1:11:42] And so now you've taken all of the stuff that you invested decades in, [1:11:47] and turned it into something you have to apologize for all of a sudden. And so the great startups, they create movements not so much by criticizing the incumbent, [1:11:57] but by... [1:11:59] Showing the weakness in the strength of the income.

[1:12:01] And then just saying to the customer, hey, look, you decide. It's not up to me to decide what's bad about four seasons. It's up to you to decide whether you value my difference or not. [1:12:10] That reminds me of counter-positioning from Hamilton Helmer's Seven Powers book. 100%. [1:12:16] Mm-hmm. [1:12:17] So to make it even more practical for people, they're like, oh, I need to come up with a movement for my startup. That's why things aren't working. [1:12:23] It sounds like it's kind of a... [1:12:25] how we want the future to look and why we're doing this [1:12:28] And then it's a combination of marketing, positioning, messaging, [1:12:32] repeating it on social media, I imagine, is that [1:12:34] Is that roughly how to think about it? [1:12:35] But I would also say that it's about storytelling. And so like storytelling... [1:12:43] There is a science to storytelling. [1:12:45] And so like, for example, [1:12:47] The hero's journey... [1:12:50] You have somebody in the world that is. [1:12:52] Zero. Let's say Luke Skywalker on Tatooine. [1:12:55] Dusty planet, he's bored out of his mind. [1:12:58] And then a mentor shows up. [1:13:01] and offers them a call to adventure. Obi-Wan Kenobi. [1:13:04] And at first they resist the call. [1:13:07] But then something bad happens. You know, in this case, Luke's like, hey, I can't come with you. I got chores to do. [1:13:13] for Ant Baru and Uncle Owen. [1:13:15] But then he comes back to his place and it's all burned down. The stormtroopers killed his aunt and uncle. [1:13:21] So then he accepts the call. [1:13:23] The mentor has a tool and a magic [1:13:27] In this case, it was the lightsaber was the tool, or the magic was the force. [1:13:31] And they need those things because the hero has to have a reason to credibly believe that

[1:13:37] that they can beat the bad guy. [1:13:39] right? And so then they [1:13:40] Then what happens is you... [1:13:42] You... [1:13:43] Fine co-conspirators along the way, Han Solo, Chewie. [1:13:47] you know, ultimately the princess, [1:13:49] You rescue her. [1:13:51] You blow up the Death Star, you beat the Empire. [1:13:53] and then emerge transformed. They even get medals at the end of the movie, right? [1:13:58] Now, it turns out that the exact same thing applies for startups. So like, [1:14:03] If we take the lift example, [1:14:05] Let's just say I'm a rider. [1:14:07] In the past, the world that is, taxis suck in Zanfruz. [1:14:11] I can't even get one. And when I get one, it's gross and it smells bad and it's late and it [1:14:16] They won't take my credit cards. I have to have cash. They can't rely on them to get me there. [1:14:21] I guess my alternative is to park. You can't ever get parking. People break into your car. [1:14:25] That's the world that is. [1:14:27] Logan and John would engage in a call to adventure. Try this ride-sharing app. It shows cars on a map. You know where they are all the time. They come within five minutes. [1:14:37] fist bump the driver [1:14:39] Now, [1:14:40] This was where the genius of the pink mustache came in. [1:14:43] So the pink mustache honored the fact that, [1:14:46] that a lot of times people resist the call it's scary to get in a stranger's car [1:14:51] So the pink mustache made it seem a little bit less scary. When you see these cars drive around in San Francisco, [1:14:56] You're like, what's up with that pink mustache? And you're talking to your friend. They say, oh, it's this new thing called Lyft. It's pretty cool. You know, it's an app. Have you seen it? [1:15:04] And so Logan and John... [1:15:06] did among the best I've ever seen

[1:15:09] at honoring the fact that people might resist the call. [1:15:13] But then part of the story is languaging. This was the genius of Twitter. They didn't call it microblogs, Inc., [1:15:18] Right. They created a metaphor around tweeting birds, you know, [1:15:22] The Tesla was this way, right? It wouldn't have survived a comparison with a Porsche of 911. The seats weren't as good. The radio wasn't as good. [1:15:30] but but [1:15:31] Elon was telling a story about a different future. [1:15:35] And when you bought the Tesla Roadster, you weren't buying it for practical reasons. You were buying it for aesthetic reasons. You were buying it. [1:15:41] because you thought that that future was something you wanted to be part of. [1:15:45] So the storytelling primitive ends up working spectacularly well for startups, right? [1:15:50] We need to describe the world that is. [1:15:52] We need to describe the world that could be, which is that different future. [1:15:56] We need to understand, and this is important, right, that your job as the founder is to be Obi-Wan, not Luke. [1:16:03] So the founders sometimes make the mistake of thinking that they're the hero, but they're not. [1:16:08] the early believers are the heroes. [1:16:10] And it's the job of the founder to tell a story that, [1:16:14] that [1:16:15] EMOTE! [1:16:16] early believers to want to move with them and co-create the future with them and like [1:16:20] The story you tell an employee is different from the story you tell an investor is different from the story you tell an employee. [1:16:25] a customer [1:16:27] because all of them have a different idea of what their heroes journey. If you're an investor, maybe your idea of being a hero is to make 100 times your money and be on some fancy list. [1:16:36] and make money for your LPs, if you're an early customer,

[1:16:40] Maybe you're a hero by solving an important business problem and getting recognized for it in your company. [1:16:46] If you're an early employee, maybe it's you want to work on something you're excited about with really awesome people. [1:16:52] that don't waste your time with politics and bureaucracy, right? [1:16:56] All of those are different journeys. All of those are different [1:16:59] transformational ways to self-actualize. And we have to [1:17:03] We have to meet those people where they are. [1:17:06] and give them a reason to want to come with us to the world that could be. [1:17:10] I had Nancy Duarte on the podcast. She's one of the most famous presentation designers, and she had exactly the same advice when you're trying to tell a story. [1:17:18] You basically bounce back between the world that is, the world that could be, what is, what could be, what is, what could be. [1:17:23] and just kind of keep going back and forth. A hundred percent. In fact, um, [1:17:27] Nancy is the person who helped me understand this better than any single person. So, I [1:17:32] So Nancy would show me how Steve Jobs' iPhone watch speech [1:17:37] She'd be like, okay, well, now notice what he does. He shows how bad... [1:17:42] Phones suck now. [1:17:43] They have styluses, they have keyboards. [1:17:46] And then he talks about what could be. You could combine an Internet communicator. You could combine an iPod. [1:17:53] And he goes back and forth between... [1:17:55] how bad the current state of things is, [1:17:59] how it should be. [1:18:00] How bad it is, how it should be, introducing the iPhone. How bad it was, how awesome it's going to be. [1:18:06] how awesome it is. [1:18:07] Like when you look at his speech... [1:18:09] He's masterful at toggling. And by the way, the same as Trevade Lincoln with the Gettysburg Address.

[1:18:15] Four, four, and seven years ago. [1:18:17] new nation. Now we're in a civil war. [1:18:20] you know, we need to preserve what we stand for as a country. [1:18:24] We need to go win this war. But he kind of goes back and forth. [1:18:27] drawing attention between what has happened in the world that was and the world that could be. [1:18:33] Something that I was thinking as you were talking was, [1:18:35] I've seen too many founders spend so much time crafting this amazing story and vision of their product. [1:18:41] And they have this really cool blog post and [1:18:43] big idea, but [1:18:44] nobody really cares about their product yet [1:18:47] Do you have any advice of just like... [1:18:49] just make sure you're building something people want above all else and the story is [1:18:54] a layer on top of that. [1:18:55] So many startups I see [1:18:57] The first slide is like, we're Acme AI software. We're located in San Francisco. [1:19:03] We're funded by X and Y VCs. [1:19:07] That's not storytelling. [1:19:09] Because you're talking about yourself. [1:19:11] Right? Like... [1:19:12] And [1:19:13] If you're trying to make the person in the audience the hero... [1:19:16] They don't care about you yet. [1:19:18] they care about how you're going to make them a hero. [1:19:21] And so like when you when you kind of say, OK, [1:19:24] If I'm pitching VCs, what I really need to do is help them understand why they'll be a hero. [1:19:30] if they invest in my company, according to what makes them feel heroic, [1:19:34] what you present is different. But like what a lot of [1:19:37] startup presentations do, [1:19:40] is they take their sales pitch and they re-host it for every other audience they re-host it for the press for

[1:19:45] investors and for employees and all that. [1:19:48] And that's wrong because what you're doing – [1:19:51] is you're talking about yourself to different people [1:19:54] But what you want to do is... [1:19:56] describe the world that could be [1:19:59] the stakes that are involved, [1:20:01] And then each of those individual audiences, you want to meet them where they live in the world that is. [1:20:06] and show them how they can engage in a transformational journey. [1:20:09] to the world it could be. [1:20:12] And also show your amazing stats and backgrounds and market size and [1:20:17] All that stuff. [1:20:19] yeah although it's it's funny you know i found that investors are the same investors [1:20:23] Ultimately, they believe or they don't believe. [1:20:26] you know, [1:20:27] A lot of times, this is the other thing I see happen is, [1:20:31] The poor founder will get advice from 20 different people about their pitch deck. [1:20:35] And a lot of the people giving him advice are not believers in that different future. [1:20:40] They're giving generic startup advice or they'll go pitch a bunch of firms and [1:20:44] And they didn't consider who's prepared to possibly believe who isn't. [1:20:49] And so then they get objections to their pitch from people who aren't going to believe anyway. [1:20:53] And then they try to have a slide to meet that objection. And before you know it, [1:20:57] You have what I call a franken deck. [1:20:59] And so you have this huge, gigantic [1:21:02] presentation. [1:21:03] trying to anticipate every objection, [1:21:05] And the person who was ready to believe you in the first place doesn't know [1:21:10] what you were trying to say because you obscured it with all this other stuff [1:21:14] And so I find that just like with an insight, it's okay if most investors don't like your idea. What you want to find is the ones who are prepared to move with you,

[1:21:22] and make sure they absolutely know why they should. [1:21:25] To me, that's the ideal pitch deck. [1:21:28] I love this advice. [1:21:29] And just to be clear, this is like seed and precede before there's a lot of traction, a lot of data. Exactly. Exactly. [1:21:36] So what's your advice to a founder that's trying to iterate on their deck? Is it just like don't show it to too many people? [1:21:41] Does it stick to your guns? Okay, here would be my succinct advice. And other than that, there's about a million details. Slide one. [1:21:49] Slide one, you say what you do. [1:21:52] As if I literally know nothing. [1:21:54] So it's not, we're Airbnb, we're a marketplace for unused residential housing space. [1:21:59] Bat. [1:22:00] But you'll get advice that says to do that because VCs think marketplaces are hot, residential real estate's big. [1:22:07] What you should instead say is something like, um, [1:22:10] We're Airbnb. We let you rent an extra room in your house. [1:22:14] Because now as the VC, I'm like, oh, [1:22:16] I know what you do. [1:22:18] And there are a lot of pitches I'm 10, 15 minutes in, and I'm trying to understand what they do, but I don't know. [1:22:23] So if you just say, here's what we do. [1:22:26] And then the second thing that I say to people is I think your second slide ought to be [1:22:32] Here's the thing we know that's not obvious. [1:22:35] So like when I was raising fund one for floodgate, I would go to LP and say, [1:22:40] We believe that there's a gap between angels and VCs. [1:22:44] And VCs are writing $5 million checks, Angels $250,000 checks. [1:22:48] We believe that 500,000 is the new 5 million because of lean startups. We believe that there will be

[1:22:53] a new type of category of funds called seed funds. [1:22:56] Now, if you don't believe that, [1:22:59] Nothing else I'm about to say is going to make any sense to you. [1:23:02] You know, I can just give you your time back. [1:23:04] Because like, it's not. But then once if they did believe that or they were in a position to lean forward. [1:23:11] Now, when they start mentioning my competitors, I say, okay, well, recall... [1:23:14] Peter Fenton works at Benchmark. He's not going to compete with me because why would Peter Fenton leave Benchmark to start a seed fund? Doesn't make sense. [1:23:22] The only people who are going to try to compete with me from the big funds are the people who aren't performing with me. [1:23:26] But if you set the context of what your insight is, [1:23:30] You can always come back to it when they bring up competitors. You can always come back to it when they bring up objections. [1:23:35] And you can say, hey, remember, like I'm just telling you, [1:23:39] We need to agree on this insight for this to have a chance of being right some. [1:23:44] So what do we do? What's our insight? And then slide three is [1:23:49] what if any proof points do we have? Do we have any customers? [1:23:53] Do we have great founders? You know, is there something happened already? [1:23:57] that should cause you to believe that my insight is valed. [1:24:01] I love this. I love this tangent we went on. [1:24:04] Let me come back to... [1:24:06] the actions that you found the most successful startups end up taking. We've talked about movements, [1:24:12] We've talked about storytelling. The third is my favorite. I'm excited to hear you talk about it, which is disagreeableness. What is that about? [1:24:19] Earlier, I mentioned that you want to escape the comparison trap when you have your insight and when you have your idea.

[1:24:25] In creating movements and telling stories, you want to break free from the conformity trap. [1:24:31] we always are under pressure [1:24:34] to conform in this world. [1:24:36] And, you know, people use the pressure of conformity [1:24:40] to prevent us from exploring [1:24:43] things outside of our limits. [1:24:45] You know, like there's a there's a book that I love called Jonathan Living's a Siegel. [1:24:49] where there's a seagull who wants to fly... [1:24:52] at infinite speed. [1:24:54] And all the other seagulls are like, look, we're just destined to eat crap off the surface of the ocean. That's just what we are. We're seagulls. [1:25:00] And he ends up getting banished from the flock because everybody thinks he's crazy. [1:25:05] And so to me, the great founders are kind of like Jonathan Livingston Siegel. [1:25:08] They're willing to pursue something that they're obsessed with that they think has to happen in this world. [1:25:15] And they're willing to sacrifice... [1:25:18] They're [1:25:19] status, you know, in the socio- [1:25:22] economic sometimes. [1:25:24] dominance hierarchy. [1:25:25] Because... [1:25:26] Fulfilling the mission is ultimately more important to them than fitting in. [1:25:30] And, you know, you can't stand out if you always fit in, right? You know, only people who are different can really make a difference. [1:25:36] and so that's kind of the the mindset so [1:25:39] I like to say a startup is a fundamentally disagreeable act in first place. [1:25:44] And there's going to be times you need to be disagreeable. And I've, [1:25:47] I've seen this time and again. You know, like I hear people say to me, I'm [1:25:51] I want to work with a founder who's coachable. [1:25:54] I'm like, you know, I'm not really sure, you know, like it.

[1:25:58] Sometimes I used to joke that when I would meet with Ev Williams, [1:26:01] my whole job was to give him advice that he ignored. [1:26:05] So I would say to him, I'd say, hey, I don't think you should raise that much money because I think you'll spend whatever you raise in 18 months, no matter how much you raise. [1:26:12] And he said, man, so you mean that startups almost always spend their money in 18 months regardless of the amount? [1:26:19] And I said, yeah, I call it Mike's Law. It almost always happens. [1:26:22] I said, because once you have the money, [1:26:24] All the pressure is on you to spend it. [1:26:27] And so so he's like, man, you know, that is a really good advice. I'd never thought of it that way before. [1:26:33] That sounds right to me. Well, he proceeds to go raise a shitload of money. [1:26:37] But like, you know, [1:26:38] He did stuff that I didn't think he should do, but it worked. [1:26:41] and i liked that in him like a lot of people would say well doesn't it bother you that he didn't listen to you that much no [1:26:48] because he was disagreeable, right? And he was the right kind of disagreeable. [1:26:52] You know, he didn't say pound sand. I, you know, I'm not listening to you. La la la. I'm covering my ears. [1:26:58] He listened and he understood what I thought the truth was. [1:27:02] He just believed a different truth than I did. [1:27:05] And, you know, that's fine. You know, uh, [1:27:08] My job is the investor. [1:27:10] is to just help them see what my perception of the truth is. [1:27:14] Honestly. [1:27:15] And if they decide to go in a different direction, [1:27:17] That's great. They're the founder. They're the genius. And so, [1:27:20] I find that, and you know, all of them, not all of them, but a whole lot of them, [1:27:25] are more disagreeable than... [1:27:27] history lets on. You know, like my dad worked for Bill Gates when he was at Microsoft.

[1:27:32] Bill Gates is not a warm and fuzzy dude. He was tough. [1:27:36] Right. He was a hard ass. [1:27:38] Bye. [1:27:39] Great people are inspired by hard asses. [1:27:42] as long as the hard-ass [1:27:44] Like, [1:27:45] makes this, you know, [1:27:46] You meld the steel in the heat of the flame. [1:27:50] of high standards. [1:27:52] And, you know, people... [1:27:54] Sometimes people can't work for Elon Musk for very long, but almost everybody I know has worked for him really respects him. [1:27:59] because he has high standards. [1:28:01] And, you know, [1:28:02] He's not trying to win friends and influence people. He's trying to... [1:28:06] Land on Mars. [1:28:07] And if you're a land on Mars, you've got to be disagreeable some of the time. [1:28:10] So, you know, I just find that that is a trait that is under underappreciated. These great founder quite often. [1:28:18] What you just shared reminds me of a recent podcast episode of Jeffrey Pfeffer, which I know you listen to, where he talks about the rules of power. [1:28:26] how people acquire power. And the last rule is [1:28:28] Understand that once you have acquired power, what you did to get it will be forgiven, forgotten, or both. [1:28:34] And so your Bill Gates example, I think, is a good one where people look at him as such a nice [1:28:39] dude when as you said he was not so nice well here's the other thing and by the way i listened to that episode from beginning to the end right and i thought it was fantastic because i was like the [1:28:49] The next thing I want to do is go to Professor Pfeffer and say, [1:28:54] can we cast these seven principles through a pattern-breaking lens? Like, let's assume you're a startup capitalist. You're not at a company... [1:29:01] Because, you know,

[1:29:02] changing the future [1:29:04] requires you to acquire a different [1:29:07] form of power. [1:29:08] than you would say in an organization. [1:29:11] But as I was listening to it, I was like, [1:29:14] These principles all apply to pattern breakers. [1:29:17] And, you know... [1:29:18] like all of them, every single one. And the other one, right, is that [1:29:22] I think that he said, you know, not everybody's going to like you. [1:29:26] And if you want to be alive, get a dog. But if you want power, [1:29:30] there are certain things you're going to have to do and reconcile yourself with. [1:29:35] And so... [1:29:36] acquisition of power [1:29:38] you know acquisition of power has this notion of you gotta you gotta wield the carrot and the stick [1:29:44] If all you do is wield the carrot, [1:29:46] you won't create enough activation energy for people to, [1:29:50] move to that different future. Sometimes you do have to use the stick. [1:29:54] And sometimes you have to realize that people are going to use – [1:29:57] your desire to fit in against you. They're going to say, oh, you can't do that. That's illegal. Or you can't do that. That's unethical. Or you can't do that. You're being some tech bro bad guy. [1:30:06] who's like, you know, [1:30:08] A lot of what I find with the founders I work with [1:30:12] ironically, before they win, [1:30:14] They have to have the courage to be disliked because people don't like their idea. They think it's stupid. [1:30:19] lonely. [1:30:20] But then after they win, it's even worse. [1:30:22] Because everybody says you cheated or you're a bad guy or you broke the rules or you're too powerful or – [1:30:27] Who gave you the right to decide what the future should be? [1:30:31] And so they just they get criticized unfairly in the other direction after they succeed.

[1:30:36] But in the end, it comes with the territory, right? It's kind of [1:30:40] you know, part of the job description, unfortunately. [1:30:43] Yeah, Elon goes through a lot of that. [1:30:45] Something I saw you tweet recently along these same lines is that [1:30:49] most successful companies, there's tons of chaos. [1:30:52] internally. [1:30:53] and everyone's working at these companies like this place is a mess how is this even working but you're [1:30:57] Your finding is that that's very common and normal. [1:30:59] Yeah, especially in startups. So there have been times when I've said things like execution doesn't matter. [1:31:06] And people can misinterpret that, you know. So when I mean execution doesn't matter, I don't mean people shouldn't get things done or. [1:31:14] People shouldn't say, what did you do this week? [1:31:16] But when I think of execution in a corporate sense, [1:31:20] like, [1:31:21] Corporations, in theory, should always win. [1:31:23] They have big management team. They have more experienced people. [1:31:27] They have customer suppliers, partners, brand... [1:31:30] So startup never beats a big company by executing better than the big company. [1:31:35] startup wins over the big company because it proposes a radically different future. [1:31:40] disorients the incumbent, [1:31:42] It sort of chaotically moves people to that different future. [1:31:46] But like every startup I've ever seen on the inside, [1:31:49] was wild. [1:31:51] It was like a capitalist mutation. It was like [1:31:54] It was like trying to find a beat finch in the Galapagos Islands that's never been discovered before. [1:32:01] And it's all ambiguous all the time. And people are arguing about what the right direction is all the time. And people are, you know, it's just messy.

[1:32:09] But it's like, you know, movements are messy. [1:32:12] And that's just kind of [1:32:14] You know, that's kind of what we... [1:32:15] comes with the territory. [1:32:17] A friend of mine, Robin Roberts, once said, make your mess your message. [1:32:21] So true. [1:32:24] Oh man, that's so funny. I love it. [1:32:27] I have a couple more questions before we wrap up. [1:32:30] Before we leave the actions category, is there anything else you think is important to share? Any other lessons that we haven't touched on? [1:32:37] I think, Lenny, I don't know if you've consciously tried to do this or not, but on some level, you've created a movement, right? And like you have... [1:32:44] No one has ever engaged people with product management sensibilities the way you have. [1:32:49] And, you know, like I go to your site, right, and you even have merch, right? [1:32:53] Right. For product manager. I mean, I'm like, what? [1:32:56] And, you know, I imagine the early posts that you wrote, it probably felt kind of lonely. It's probably like, I wonder if anybody's even reading this stuff. [1:33:03] But it's like it starts to accumulate, right? More people start to read it. More people start to... [1:33:08] tell their friends about it, [1:33:10] And now all of a sudden it kind of becomes a thing, right? And so... [1:33:13] you know, in many ways, [1:33:15] Lenny's podcast, Lenny's [1:33:18] blog and Lenny's newsletter are all [1:33:20] you know, kind of [1:33:22] examples of [1:33:23] facets of this movement that you're creating. [1:33:26] But your movement is not just about the stories you tell or the guests you have or the podcasts or the [1:33:33] write-ups you have [1:33:35] you have a point of view, right? You have a point of view about [1:33:38] the centrality of a product manager

[1:33:41] in companies and in businesses and in the future, [1:33:44] And it's like honoring that the way Nike honors athletes. [1:33:48] And it's like... [1:33:50] The point of view is the movement, just like the point of view is the company when it's a startup. [1:33:57] this point of view is the story. It's the place that people want to go that [1:34:02] got animated by the beliefs that you shared. [1:34:06] Fascinating. I'm flattered. I have no intention of starting a movement. [1:34:09] I can see what you're saying. That sounds like a lot of stress. [1:34:13] I think you already have, whether you met two or not. I think you have. [1:34:17] All right. Well, I do have swag. And if you're on YouTube, this is our best selling item, a hat that just says product manager. People love it. I have it in the background. Can I wear one if I'm still not one? [1:34:28] Absolutely. You've been one. And so forever product manager. I'll send you a hat. Get grandfathered in for my past. [1:34:35] Forever, forever PM Mike. Okay, I just have one more question. [1:34:39] and this is around your last chapter, [1:34:41] which I think is going to be useful to a lot of people. Your last chapter is about how to apply a lot of these principles [1:34:45] to [1:34:46] working at a company. Say you're not a founder. A lot of these... [1:34:49] principles still apply what advice can you share for people sapiem instead of large company [1:34:54] to help them find pattern breaking ideas, big ideas within the company? Yeah. So the first the first thing I think is important to understand is that [1:35:04] everything about a value delivery system. [1:35:07] when you're doing a pattern breaking idea is different from a normal idea.

[1:35:11] So like the mistake that most companies make is they say, I've got this new pattern breaking idea. [1:35:15] It needs to be a third of my business in 24 months or three years or whatever. [1:35:21] bad strategy, right? So, like... [1:35:24] let's take a company like, say, Apple, where they did the iPhone. [1:35:28] The iPhone was a whole new thing. [1:35:30] It was driven by, in this case, Steve Jobs, the founder, [1:35:34] You couldn't reconcile it with the original business of the math. [1:35:38] and not really even the iPod. [1:35:40] So you had to treat it [1:35:42] is a totally different thing. [1:35:44] And that's really hard for companies. So companies make the mistake of [1:35:50] engaging in a pattern-breaking product, [1:35:52] but they make it too visible. [1:35:54] or it's a career-limiting move if it fails. [1:35:58] And, you know... [1:35:59] Pattern-breaking products have different types of leadership. [1:36:03] different types of go-to-market motion as we've described, [1:36:06] different types of ideas, different risk profiles, you know, so you're, you're, [1:36:11] Instead of saying... [1:36:13] this company or this business is too big to fail. [1:36:16] I need to make small bets that can fail a lot. [1:36:20] The same is true with mergers and acquisitions, right? So [1:36:23] If I buy a company, I need to ask, am I buying a pattern-breaking company now? [1:36:28] to break the pattern of my business and go radically, [1:36:32] New Direction [1:36:33] Or am I buying a company that's an extension of my current business? [1:36:37] Neither is wrong per se, but the way you think about risk varies. [1:36:41] enormously.

[1:36:42] And so so like some examples that I have in the book of good examples are. [1:36:47] the iPhone, Steve Jobs, uh, [1:36:50] AWS. [1:36:51] But some people objected. They said, okay, that's easy for the founders to do because they're founders of the company, and that's Steve Jobs at Jeff Bezos. [1:36:59] The other example I like is skunkworms with Lockheed. [1:37:02] And so when they when they created a fighter plane in a very short amount of time, [1:37:08] And that's how they did it. They had an organization totally separate from the main organization, [1:37:13] somebody with absolute power or, [1:37:15] and try to make it not visible, try to make it be separate. [1:37:20] because when you make it visible, [1:37:22] you start to drift it back into the tractor beam of acting like a pattern matching corporation. [1:37:28] Another good example back in the day was Don Estridge at IBM when they did the IBM PC. [1:37:33] But it's almost always an autonomous business headed by a maverick. [1:37:37] And you're trying to do something discreetly different rather than a better version of what you've already done. [1:37:45] This aligns very well with we had two recent podcast episodes. [1:37:49] talking to PMs at companies that are doing zero to one stuff. [1:37:53] . [1:37:54] And Tongi had a really interesting tidbit along the lines you just talked about where he set up his team in a [1:37:59] Totally different time zone so that people that wanted to bug them just were like sleeping during that time and they weren't even online so that they could just focus on the work they were doing and it worked out. [1:38:08] i'm mostly through that episode and everything that i've listened to so far i'm like okay

[1:38:13] That totally... [1:38:15] That totally jives with what I've seen. The other person who has an interesting take on this is Vinod Kovla. [1:38:22] And so Vinod basically thinks that what companies should do is take some portion of their profits, [1:38:28] and let's say 10% of your profits and invested in projects likely to fail, [1:38:33] but with wildly asymmetric upside if they succeed. [1:38:36] and then make them not visible, [1:38:39] to the mothership. [1:38:40] in the early innings. [1:38:41] And so... [1:38:42] You know, you want to you want to it's your willingness to fail that lets you have breakthrough success. [1:38:48] And you know, [1:38:49] Any coin that says can't lose bad... [1:38:52] on one side of it, might as well say can't win big on the other side. [1:38:56] And so you have to, you know, it's your willingness to fail [1:38:59] and it comes back to departing from the consensus. [1:39:02] It's your willingness to fail that enables success. [1:39:06] And every time you depart from the consensus, there's a chance you'll be wrong. You'll underperform the consensus. [1:39:13] But it's your willingness to do that that lets you outperform it. [1:39:16] But there's no shortcuts, right? [1:39:18] The coin that says can't lose says can't win on the other side, and lose big says win big on the other side. [1:39:24] Thank you. [1:39:26] Mike, this episode is so full of nuggets. [1:39:29] tactical advice, amazing stories. [1:39:32] Everything I was hoping would be [1:39:34] Before we get to our very exciting lighting round, is there anything else that you think might be useful to share with folks that are trying to start a company or already along with a company?

[1:39:44] Yeah, the one thing I would say is that... [1:39:48] It's a lonely existence. [1:39:50] And it's okay if most people don't like your idea. [1:39:55] And it doesn't mean you're right. [1:39:57] But sure as heck doesn't mean you're wrong either. [1:40:00] And so, you know, there's not enough people in this world [1:40:04] willing to stick their neck out, [1:40:06] for things that they believe that they see before the rest of us. [1:40:10] And so just for what it's worth, if anybody in your audience is one of those people, [1:40:14] you have just my utmost respect and affection. And I hope that, you know, [1:40:19] In those times when it's [1:40:22] Tempting to not believe. [1:40:24] you know, [1:40:25] It comes with the territory... [1:40:27] Every great founder has faced it. [1:40:30] And, you know, it doesn't make you wrong. [1:40:33] Amazing. What an empowering, inspiring way to end it. [1:40:38] Mike. [1:40:38] With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready? Okay, here we go. Here we go. [1:40:45] First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people? [1:40:50] a book called The Five Regrets of the Dying, Top Five Regrets of the Dying by Bronnie Ware. [1:40:56] She was a hospice nurse, and she would talk to people [1:40:59] in the last 90 days of their lives. [1:41:02] And, you know, and she would find out the things that they'd wish that they had done in their lives. [1:41:08] that they hadn't. And I always thought that that was a good, [1:41:11] that that was a good book because it reminds you about what's important and it reminds you that

[1:41:16] It isn't going to last forever. [1:41:18] Someday it'll be the last day. [1:41:20] There's another book that I really like called Chase, Chance, and Creativity. [1:41:25] by a guy named James Austin. [1:41:28] And I think that it's a good book because it talks about [1:41:32] How certain people tend to attract luck more than others. [1:41:36] And that actually that luck is created. [1:41:39] You do make luck? [1:41:41] And so I'm just fascinated by this idea of [1:41:45] of luck. [1:41:46] and how it can be harnessed. [1:41:49] So I'd say those two, I mean, there's a whole bunch of them. [1:41:53] You know, I've always liked all of Clay Christensen's books. [1:41:57] The other one that I kind of liked is that I read recently by Robert Green, The Laws of Human Nature. [1:42:03] So I like that one a lot as well. [1:42:06] And then Nancy Guarte's book, Resonate, we talked about Nancy earlier, I like that book a lot. [1:42:12] I'm buying that first one immediately. That sounds incredible. I need that book. [1:42:16] Regrets of the Dying, I found it on Amazon as you were talking and I'm buying it. [1:42:20] Good pick there. [1:42:21] Okay, next question. Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed? [1:42:26] So I really liked that the movie about Enzo Ferrari. [1:42:30] And I just I have this huge question. [1:42:35] Uh. [1:42:35] affinity for 1960s cars. [1:42:38] And the way that they replicated these 1960s Ferraris, I just thought was magical. I thought to the guys that did the special effects and just the attention to detail, I thought was just extraordinary.

[1:42:50] I have not seen it. Quick aside, as I was buying this book, your book was recommended on Amazon for me. [1:42:55] Oh, good. Here we go. Good job, Amazon. [1:42:59] I will point people to where to find it at the end of this series of questions. But next question is, [1:43:03] Is there a favorite... [1:43:04] product that you have recently discovered that you really like. [1:43:08] When I was young, before I got into computers, I had a [1:43:12] job as a professional calligrapher. [1:43:15] And so I really like using a, [1:43:17] uh, [1:43:18] calligraphy pens, [1:43:19] And not long ago, I sort of, [1:43:22] discovered the world. It had been a long time since I'd reconnected with that hobby. I discovered the world of vintage fountain pen. [1:43:29] So my favorite product of recent times is a, this will go, everybody will be like, that sounds pretty esoteric, but it's a... [1:43:37] Mont Blanc 149 first generation celluloid pen. [1:43:42] So it was like right after World War II, [1:43:44] And it was the Germans kind of coming back saying, you know, [1:43:48] We've still got it. [1:43:49] You know, it was just... [1:43:51] It was just a product for the ages. You know, it has a flexible nib. They don't, [1:43:55] Fountain pens don't work the way they used to. They used to make flexible nibs so that you could write the way [1:44:01] scribes wrote like in the 1800s and stuff. [1:44:04] but then people in the modern world break those nibs and they use ballpoint pens anyway [1:44:10] But like when I use these old flexible... [1:44:13] 19. [1:44:14] from pens from 1900 to the 1940s. [1:44:17] They're just magical. I mean, they're just nothing like there's nobody's ever been able to equal that experience in modern times.

[1:44:25] Wow. I got to give me, I got to try one of these pens. Yeah, I'll give you one of them so you can at least get a feel for it. [1:44:32] Yeah. Wow. I'll give you a product management hat. I'll get a pen, a beautiful pen. [1:44:36] I think I win in this exchange. [1:44:38] That's Lisa. [1:44:39] Two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often repeat to yourself, share with folks that you find useful to come back to? [1:44:47] I learned it from my dad. Um, [1:44:50] It sounds simple, but it's kind of profound. Do your best. [1:44:53] And what he meant by that is he didn't mean be the best. [1:44:57] He meant that life is a gift and [1:45:00] You don't know how much time you're going to have. Every day is the gift of your time. [1:45:05] And the best way to honor the gift of your time is to do your best. [1:45:08] And there'll be times you won't be the best, but if all you did was the best, that's all you could do. [1:45:14] And I remember one time, so I was a senior in high school, [1:45:17] I've already gotten into Stanford. I'm totally psyched. I'm going to go last week of the semester of senior year. [1:45:25] And I'm [1:45:26] have a test the next day in English. [1:45:28] And my dad's like, hey, how are you feeling about the test? I said, it doesn't really matter. I get to drop it. [1:45:34] And I'm going to get an A in the class because I've got, you know, I've got I've got the goods. Right. I don't I don't need to do well on it. [1:45:40] And he looked so disappointed at me. [1:45:42] And he was like, you know, [1:45:45] It doesn't sound like you're doing your best. [1:45:48] And what he was kind of getting at was that, you know, [1:45:52] The people who achieve greatness... [1:45:54] They think everything counts.

[1:45:58] So I always, uh, [1:46:00] got a lot from that with him and there'd be other times where i wouldn't do so well on something [1:46:06] and he would he would say well you know sometimes you make a careless mistake or you know [1:46:11] but you did your best. That's all you could have done. [1:46:13] And so, like, the idea of doing your best – [1:46:17] I find it to be very profound. And it causes you to realize that [1:46:21] The best way to show up in the world is to be the best, your best self. There's only one you in this world. [1:46:26] And the more that you can show up as your best self, [1:46:29] You'll be impossible to compete with. [1:46:31] You won't feel the need to copy other folks. You won't need the... [1:46:35] the need to compare yourself to other people, [1:46:38] You'll compare yourself instead to the idea of perfection itself. [1:46:42] And whatever that means in terms of your own ability to do your best. [1:46:46] So I've always... [1:46:48] To me, that's probably the most important life lesson I've learned. [1:46:51] Wow. [1:46:53] As you said, very simple but very powerful. [1:46:55] It's powerful when you truly internalize it, right? When you take it beyond an aphorism, it's very powerful. [1:47:03] It reminds me of your partner, Anne-Marie Coe's, [1:47:06] uh advice that she got from her dad which is i think maybe the opposite [1:47:10] that she shared on Tim Ferriss' podcast of just always do a world-class job at everything you do. You're doing a world-class job. Yep. [1:47:19] Amazing. [1:47:20] Okay, I'm going to skip the last question just to end on that because that was way too beautiful to sully with another question. [1:47:26] So, [1:47:27] Just to give folks a chance to figure out where to buy your book, when it's available, how to find it, what they should know.

[1:47:34] Do share. [1:47:35] Yes, I guess there's two main ways, right? There's a, well, we've got a sub stack if not, not everybody's got to buy books, right? So there's a, [1:47:42] patterbreakers.substack.com. [1:47:45] And then I have a site, patternbreakers.com, but you can also get the book on Amazon or anywhere. It's already available for pre-order it. [1:47:53] Amazing. And I usually ask people how listeners can be useful to you. I imagine it's check out the book, share what you've learned. [1:47:59] My main goal is for the ideas to spread and to help people. [1:48:03] And so, uh, you know, hopefully, hopefully it will have achieved that goal, uh, [1:48:08] but just anything that people can do to help spread the ideas and [1:48:12] I'm looking for co-conspirators wanted. [1:48:15] I love these episodes where somebody like you spends hundreds of thousands of hours analyzing data, [1:48:20] and history and startups and talking to founders and just synthesizing all the things you've learned in a couple hours. [1:48:27] I love this. Thank you, Mike, so much for being here and for sharing all this wisdom with us. Hey, well, thanks, Lenny. It was an honor to be on your show and, you know, [1:48:35] It's been fun to see you do so well. [1:48:37] Thanks, Mike. It's an honor to have you on the show. And again, the book is called Pattern Breakers, Why Some Startups Change the Future. [1:48:43] Mike, thank you so much for being here. Okay. See you, Lenny. Thanks. Bye, everyone. [1:48:57] Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. [1:49:04] You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's podcast.com.

[1:49:09] See you in the next episode.