Karen Read's bombshell lawsuit. Twist in Crystal Rogers case. Plus, Legally Brunette host Emily Simpson.

[00:02] Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand. It starts with our approach. Every Mazda comes standard with proactive safety features. So you're more aware of what's around you, more focused on the road ahead, and ready before problems ever start. [00:19] Mazda. More of what matters most to you. Go to mazdausa.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse or promote any product. [00:30] When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track. [00:37] because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high-quality motors, sensors, belts and hard-to-find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. [00:48] so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. [00:51] Call 1-800-GRANGER, click granger.com, or just stop by. [00:55] Grainger. For the ones who get it done. [01:00] All right, let's begin. You're listening to the Dateline Story Meeting. I mean, I have Josh backing me up, which is great. Good morning, all. Our team is catching up on breaking crime news. It's really horrifying. It's all on video. When do you think it's going to wrap up? Well, I think we have to find out more. [01:18] Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's June 11th, and here's what's on our docket. A stunning arrest in Bardstown, Kentucky. [01:30] of murdering Kentucky mom of five, Crystal Rogers, is now facing criminal charges too. Prosecutors allege that Nick made false statements between July 2015 and April 2023.

[01:43] In Dateline Roundup, we've got updates from the Bahamas about the investigation into the mysterious disappearance of a Michigan woman. And Brendan Banfield, the former IRS agent convicted of murdering his wife so he could start life over with the family au pair, learns his fate. [01:59] You did not just take her mother from her. You placed her in the middle of the horror you created. Plus, Emily Simpson, the lawyer turned real housewife who hosts the true crime podcast Legally Brunette, will be here to dissect one of the biggest true crime documentaries of the year. Two young people died, and you know she's dressing up as a corpse. It just shows just a lack of accountability, a lack of remorse. Before all that, we're heading to Massachusetts, where Karen Reed has filed a bombshell new lawsuit. [02:31] It's been nearly a year since Karen Reed was acquitted of murdering her police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe. When the verdict was read, I was sitting inside the Norfolk Superior Courthouse and could hear the thunderous applause and cheers from her supporters outside. Defendant not guilty or guilty? Not guilty. So say you, Mr. Foreman? Yes. So say you all? Yes. After standing trial twice, Karen finally won her freedom. But she wasn't finished fighting. [02:59] She has filed suit against the Massachusetts State Police and the Canton Police Department. The lawsuit says the two agencies should be, quote, forced to answer for the way their investigators handled her case. Reed's new lawsuit exposes for the first time dozens of texts and voicemails former Massachusetts State Trooper Michael Proctor is alleged to have exchanged with former Canton Police Officer Sean Good. The voicemails are so offensive we can't play most of them for you.

[03:29] and her defense team argue the officers were unfit to serve and their supervisors knew it. Here to tell us more is Dateline producer Sue Simpson. Hey, Sue. Hi, Andrea. Here we are back again talking about Karen Reed. You were there with me when she stood on the courthouse steps after her acquittal. Sue, did you think that would be the last we'd hear from her? Not a chance, Andrea. Not after what Karen Reed has been through. She sees herself as a victim of corruption and bigotry. [03:56] Hence the lawsuit. Karen sat down for an exclusive interview on the Today Show last week, and right by her side was her attorney, Alan Jackson. Let's take a listen. [04:09] that this happened to me, that I was wronged in this way. I couldn't just go back to life as it was. [04:16] But, [04:17] I always knew this was going to happen if I could get... [04:20] help legally to do this. The ultimate goal is to ensure that we bring [04:27] to the light, the institutional biases, the institutional corruption that permeates the Massachusetts law enforcement system. That's what this lawsuit is going to do ultimately. Before we dive into the lawsuit, Sue, for people who don't remember, refresh us on the case. So back to January 29th, 2022, John O'Keefe's battered body was found on the lawn of a home in Canton. He was lying in the snow. He was unresponsive. Karen Reid said she dropped him [04:57] And he didn't come home. She didn't know what had happened. Karen was arrested days later on February 1st, 2022, and accused of killing John. Give us a quick overview of the prosecution's case against her. Prosecutors argued that Karen drove John to the House party, and then she ran him over with her SUV in a drunken rage. Two juries were not convinced by the prosecution's theory. We saw sue one hung jury and one acquittal.

[05:27] had been shoddy from the start. They also said that John's injuries weren't consistent with being run over, that it looked like he'd been beaten up and been bitten by a dog. Right, Andrea. And that's important because the people inside the house where Karen had dropped John off owned a German Shepherd at the time. The defense questioned why the lead investigator hadn't talked to anyone in the house. And it turns out that the house belonged to a [05:57] Proctor had personal ties to Albert. Michael Proctor, who is such a big part of this new lawsuit, he came into focus for us at Karen's first trial. Sue, you were in the courtroom the day he was on the witness stand, and the prosecution asked him to read texts that he had sent to some high school friends within hours of John's body being found. And can you read that response for the jury? There'll be some serious charges brought on the girl. [06:22] So what was so surprising about that text and others was that it seemed like Proctor had made up his mind about the case very early in the investigation. And then the text went on. He called Karen Reed a babe, and he also used the C word about her. And there was even more. On cross-examination, the defense got Proctor to read texts he'd sent to his work colleagues. And let's take a listen to some of that. [06:52] - So far. - No nudes so far, correct? - Correct. - And you said that to your bosses,

[06:59] Yes, sir. [07:00] The day the jury announced it was deadlocked in Karen's first trial, Michael Proctor was suspended from his job and was eventually fired, in part because of those messages. Now Proctor is front and center again in this new civil lawsuit. Sue, what are the main allegations? [07:18] Well, the lawsuit boils down to something quite simple. Karen Reed says both the Mass State Police and the Canton PD were negligent in how they hired, trained, and supervised their officers. She says what she calls Proctor's, quote, bias and corrupt investigation was the natural consequence of hiring and promoting bias and corrupt law enforcement officers. [07:41] She's not just talking about Michael Proctor. The lawsuit also names former Canton police officer Sean Good, who we mentioned off the top. Remind us of who he is. Well, Sean Good testified at Karen Reed's first trial. According to the lawsuit, Sean Good had known Proctor for years. He was a police sergeant on the Canton PD. The lawsuit notes that they exchanged thousands of communications over the years. [08:05] Sue, this batch of voicemails and texts between Procter and Good that are part of this suit, have these messages been authenticated? Well, Procter and Good haven't commented on these ones in particular, at least that we know of, and at least not publicly. So you've gone through all the messages, Sue, and they are so offensive and disturbing, we can't even share most of them. Tell us what you can about what they're saying.

[08:35] Here's one example, a voicemail the lawsuit said came from Proctor calling Good to give him a heads up about a car accident. Take your time. I saw a n*** was involved, so I wouldn't rush if you're working. Let them die. The lawsuit also quotes both men calling women the C-word, sluts. Here's another voicemail. This is allegedly Proctor talking about women. You want a filthy pig that you just do dirty things to. [09:05] tell you about, my goodness. Sue, the lawsuit alleges that the two men's supervisors should have known about their prejudices. Karen Reed is asking for damages from the Massachusetts State Police and the Canton Police Department. How have they responded to the lawsuit? [09:22] The MSP put out a statement saying, quote, these racist, sexist, and abhorrent comments absolutely do not reflect the values of the MSP. The statement went on to say those values are tolerated and they underscore the decision made to terminate Michael Proctor. Now, the town of Canton told NBC, these messages are deeply offensive, hateful, and do not reflect the values of the Canton Police Department or its members. [09:51] So I spoke to Michael Proctor for our Dateline episode on the case last year. And Sue, he told us that he should not have been fired over the text messages. Those are the text messages we knew about back then. And that he should be reinstated.

[10:08] to the Massachusetts State Police and get his job back. In 12 years, I've never had a single complaint. I've never been the subject of any disciplinary actions. [10:19] all my employee evaluations are either outstanding or excellent [10:23] And I still love the job. I still want to be a trooper. [10:26] Has Michael Proctor said anything about the latest allegations? Proctor's attorney dismissed these new messages saying that anything Proctor did or said in his personal life years before Officer O'Keefe was killed had no bearing whatsoever on the investigation of Karen Reed. As for Sean Good, he was put on paid leave by the Canton Police Department back in October. We don't know why other than that he was being investigated by Internal Affairs. [10:56] from the force. We don't know if that was because of the lawsuit. NBC News reached out to Good, but he has not made any comments so far. So, Sue, amazingly, this is not the only legal battle right now that Karen Reed is embroiled in. Well, the partygoers at Brian Albert's house the night of John O'Keefe's death filed a defamation suit against Karen Reed and the blogger known as Turtle Boy. Then there's Karen's own federal lawsuit against the partygoers and Michael Proctor himself, [11:26] claims they conspired to frame her for murder. And finally, John O'Keefe's family has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Reed. A trial, if there is one, is expected to happen in 2027. 2027? That's a long way off. On the Today Show last week, Craig Melvin asked Karen about her life after all of this. So let's say you win the civil suit, then what comes next for you personally? Personally, I'd like to keep talking about what I've experienced. I haven't really been

[11:57] all that I've experienced. And I think it would be a waste for me to just [12:02] disappear and go live on an island, although I would like to do that. Sue, there are so many theories about what happened to John O'Keefe the night he died. Do you think we're ever going to know what really happened that night? There's so much floating out there. I think if we get answers, they may come from the wrongful death suit filed by the family. But, you know, we're just going to have to wait and see. Thank you so much for coming on. [12:32] for years. The murder of missing Kentucky mom, Crystal Rogers. [12:39] Need to pay a friend back for festival tickets or a morning coffee run? Apple Cash makes it simple. Just tap plus in the Messages app to find Apple Cash. No need to jump between apps or search for usernames. It's a private and secure way to send money. Send cash right in the chat with Apple Cash. Apple Cash services are provided by Green Dot Bank. Member FDIC. Terms apply. [13:09] A strange thing happens when you put off finishing your college degree. [13:13] Maybe next semester. [13:15] Turns into five years, and the thought is still... [13:19] Lingering, waiting, haunting you. [13:22] That's what Southern New Hampshire University understands. [13:25] They have more than 200 affordable, flexible online degree programs.

[13:30] and the application takes just minutes to complete. [13:33] Don't let your degree linger like an unsolved case. [13:37] Apply today at snhu.edu slash dateline. Insurance is not one size fits all. [13:44] That's why drivers have trusted progressives' "name your price" tool for years. [13:50] Just tell Progressive what you want to pay. [13:52] and they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget. [13:55] Visit Progressive.com to find a car insurance rate that works for you. [14:00] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. [14:09] On July 3rd, 2015, 35-year-old Crystal Rogers vanished after spending the holiday weekend with her boyfriend, Brooks Houck. Crystal's parents, Sherry and Tommy Ballard, spent every moment trying to find out what happened to her. Searching, putting up billboards around town, and organizing vigils. And then, a year after her disappearance, another tragedy hit. [14:37] remains unsolved. But answers did come in Crystal's case. Last year, 10 years after she disappeared, and even though her body has never been found, three men were convicted in connection with her murder. Her boyfriend, Brooks Houck, and father and son, Stephen and Joseph Lawson. But over the years, another name kept surfacing during the investigation. Brooks's brother, Nick Houck, a former Bardstown police officer. Nick had come under suspicion early but was never

[15:07] crime until now. Crystal's mother, Sherry, told NBC affiliate Wave she's been waiting for this moment. It was like family. Oh, my gosh. Here to bring us the latest twist in this saga is Dateline producer Rachel White, who has been relentlessly following this story from the beginning. Hey, Rachel. Hi, Andrea. As we said, so many big twists in this case. But Rachel, first remind us of who [15:37] was a 35-year-old mother of five. At the time of her disappearance, she and her boyfriend, Brooks Houck, had been together for several years, and they shared a child together named Eli. On July 3rd, 2015, she and Brooks went to his family farm. At the time, Brooks told investigators that they spent the day there and then went back to their home together. He said that when he went to bed, Crystal was playing games on her phone like she usually did. But when he woke up the [16:07] was gone. So, Rachel, investigators immediately begin to poke holes in Brooks's story. What's the prosecution's theory about Brooks's role in Crystal's disappearance? So, prosecutors argued that Crystal never went back to her home that night, that she was killed on the Houck family farm. Jurors heard evidence of infidelity and growing problems between the two. Prosecutors

[16:37] like paying child support or losing custody of their son and that that's why he killed her. And they argued that Brooks also enlisted others to help him carry out this plan. Okay, so let's talk about Brooks's brother, Nick, the whole reason that we are revisiting this story in this moment. How did Nick first become a part of this case? So Nick is Brooks Houck's brother. At the time Crystal disappeared, he was a local police officer with the Bardstown Police Department. [17:07] few days after Crystal went missing on July 8th, 2015, Brooks was being interviewed by investigators when Nick called him. And Brooks takes the call. I'm up here. I know that you didn't know that I'm up here in this interview with the detective, Detective Snow. [17:24] And what happens next is captured on the tape of this police interview. [17:33] Thank you. [17:36] I know you've told me innocent people have got jammed up, but if you're telling me to leave, I'll get up and leave. You can't hear Nick's side of the call, so we can't know for sure what Nick was telling Brooks to do. But we did interview the detective that was in the room during this call for our Dateline episode, as you know. And he said it seemed like Nick was telling Brooks to get up and leave. Nick later said that he was just trying to protect his brother. But obviously, investigators were curious if Nick knew anything, so they interviewed him a week later. [18:06] Did your brother ever call you and say that he'd done something to Crystal?

[18:10] No, we did not. [18:11] During his interview with investigators, Rachel, Nick told them that his brother would never harm Crystal. And he also denied having any involvement himself in Crystal's disappearance. So you never helped him move a body? No. [18:25] I did not. Never helped him move any evidence. [18:29] Never. Three months after Crystal's disappearance, Nick was fired from the Bardstown Police Department for, quote, interfering with the investigation. And investigators really kept the heat on him, right? Yeah. So the sheriff's office asked him for a DNA sample during one of their searches a year after Crystal disappeared, and he cooperated. [18:59] This was right after Brooks had been arrested, so like eight years or so after Crystal's disappearance. The special prosecutor told the judge in open court that an undercover officer had purchased a gun from Nick that was similar to a gun used in connection to another mysterious death in Bardstown. Okay, and this mysterious death is one of those big twists we were talking about at the top of the segment. [19:29] this story. The gun was very similar to the one used to kill Crystal's dad, Tommy Ballard, who was shot dead while hunting in 2016, about 16 months after Crystal disappeared. Just a horrible situation, tragic for the family. And no one has ever been charged in Tommy's murder to this day. Last year, another big moment in all of this at Brooks's trial. Nick, in

[19:56] And their mother, Brooks and Nick's mother, were identified by the prosecution as unindicted co-conspirators in Crystal's murder. Rachel, explain to us what that means. So an unindicted co-conspirator is someone prosecutors believe participated in a criminal conspiracy, but they've not been charged with a crime. Maybe the prosecution doesn't have enough evidence to bring the charges or just wants to focus on the defendant currently on trial. [20:26] controversial. The person can't really defend themselves because they haven't been charged. So what did prosecutors tell the jury at Brooks's trial about Nick's alleged involvement of the events surrounding Crystal's murder? Jurors heard testimony from Nick's former girlfriend, Amber Bowman. And she said that at the time, she and Nick were in the middle of packing up to move when he left [20:50] telling her he was going to help Brooks with a rental property. Bowman testified that she repeatedly tried to reach him, but many of her calls went unanswered or went straight to voicemail. Prosecutors pointed out that those calls were made during the same period when Crystal disappeared. The prosecution isn't saying exactly what they think Nick did to help his brother. [21:12] They're just saying, [21:13] they think he helped. Correct. So their point is that Brooks couldn't have done what he did by himself. And Nick went dark at the same time as the murder was happening, which they say is suspicious. Brooks's defense said there was a perfectly innocent reason for Nick's phone being off. He was fighting with his girlfriend. Well, despite all the suspicion over the years, Nick was never charged in connection to Crystal's murder, and he continued to live in Bardstown.

[21:43] indictment [21:44] Involving Nick. Yeah, this is the big new development. So last week, Nick Houck was indicted on a felony charge of perjury. If convicted, he could face one to five years in prison. And we should say, as of this taping, prosecutors have not publicly said whether this perjury charge is directly tied to Crystal's case. [22:06] But according to the indictment, prosecutors allege that Nick made false statements between July 2015 and April 2023. And those dates span much of the Crystal Rogers investigation. [22:19] Nick has not made any public comment about his arrest. He has been released on bond. Rachel, what's next for him? His arraignment is scheduled for next week on June 18th, and that hearing may give us our first indication of exactly what statements prosecutors believe constitute perjury. Lots of movement, as always in this case, Rachel. But of course, the one thing the family truly wants is to know where Crystal is. Yeah, I think that would mean a lot to the [22:47] getting answers on what happened to Tommy would mean the world to them, too. Absolutely. Thank you, Rachel. [22:54] Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. We'll take you inside the courtroom for the sentencing of Brendan Banfield, the former IRS agent who murdered his wife to start life over with the family au pair. Plus, the Mackenzie-Sherilla case is making headlines. Emily Simpson, who hosts the true crime podcast Legally Brunette, will be here to tell us why.

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[24:49] mom. [24:55] Welcome back to the podcast. Joining us for this week's Dateline Roundup is senior producer Brad Davis. Hey, Brad. Hey, Andrea. Great to see you. You too. [25:04] For our first story, we are heading to Virginia for the sentencing of former IRS agent Brendan Banfield. Back in February, he was convicted of orchestrating a deadly catfishing plot that left his wife and another man dead. Brad, give us a refresher on this case. Sure. On February 24, 2023, police responded to a gruesome scene at the Banfield home in northern Virginia. Christine Banfield was a pediatric nurse, and she had been fatally stabbed. [25:34] floor of the bedroom, and not far from her was the body of another person, 39-year-old Joseph Ryan. Christine's husband, Brendan Banfield, told police that he'd walked in on Joseph, stabbing Christine, and he shot him to try and protect her. That story did not add up for the investigators. That's right. They quickly suspected that Brendan had killed Christine and discovered evidence that he had been having an affair with the family's au pair, and that the two of them had actually come up with an elaborate plan to get Christine out of the way. They had used Christine's [26:04] and her name on a fetish website to try and lure Joseph to the Banfield house. Investigators think that when Joseph showed up, he had thought he was going to have consensual sex with Christine and said Brendan and then Juliana shot him. And Brendan stabbed Christine. The case of Commonwealth versus Brendan Banfield. Mr. Banfield's present in the courtroom with his attorney. Last Friday, Brendan Banfield appeared for his sentencing hearing at the Fairfax County

[26:34] in this case. [26:35] First of all, it was Christine's sister, Daniel Hawker. I will forever carry both the grief of losing her too soon and the gratitude of having loved her for 37 years. [26:46] and being loved by her in return. [26:49] That bond will not end because we will always be sisters. [26:54] The family of the other victim, Joseph Ryan, was also there. His mother addressed the court. Joe wasn't the disposable person. [27:01] caricature [27:03] He was made out to be. [27:05] He had a face... [27:07] He had a name. He had a life. [27:10] For Brendan Banfield. [27:12] shut his face. [27:14] Thank you. [27:16] soiled his name. [27:19] and treated his life as disposable. [27:22] Brendan Banfield gave a statement to what did he have to say for himself? Yeah. [27:28] Yeah, Brendan Banfield gave an 11-minute speech. He was practically relitigating the case. I was found guilty of a crime that I did not commit. It is actually impossible to have committed the crime. [27:39] As the prosecution, the experts and their witnesses have presented, [27:42] What was his demeanor like while he was talking to the court? It was pretty cold and flat. He kept looking down at his papers, reading his speech plainly. He stuttered at some points. Did Brendan... [27:55] address the loss of his wife, Christine, at all. He really didn't talk about Christine until the very end of his speech. She truly was a caring mother, a caring wife,

[28:08] A loving nurse. [28:10] but I am not responsible for her death. [28:13] Following Brendan Banfield's speech, the judge did not hold back. Right, Brad? Yeah, she really didn't. She pointed out the horror and evil of his crimes, saying it's rare for her to see someone with no remorse for what they've done. And she acknowledged the unspoken victim, Christine's daughter. [28:33] You placed her in the middle of the horror you created. [28:36] She is young now, but one day she will understand your true self. [28:40] and she will understand what you took from her, which is everything. [28:43] I carry no burden and find no hesitation in sentencing you to life. [28:47] All right, let's go to San Diego, Brad, for our next story, where it is week four in the Larry Miliete trial. You'll remember that he's the man accused of murdering his wife, Maya, after paying over $1,000 to people to cast magic spells on her. Larry has pleaded not guilty. Brad, what is the latest from the courtroom? [29:17] in the time before her disappearance. Brad, Larry's sister Genesis has become an important witness in this trial. [29:24] Yes, she has. The prosecution introduced hundreds of her texts with Larry into evidence, and they're pretty intense. According to Genesis, Larry admitted that he had put a tracking device in Maya's car, and he told her about the spellcasting. He sent a picture of a makeshift altar he had set up with candles positioned around a picture of Larry and Maya. And jurors heard some revealing passages from Maya's journal this week in court. Yeah.

[29:50] Yes. Prosecutors showed entries from years before Maya disappeared addressed her daughters, where she talked about her fights with Larry. She wrote that she was afraid of him and that he was capable of hurting her. We should say, Brad, according to court records, Larry was never charged in connection to any domestic violence incidents. [30:09] For our final story, we are headed back to the Bahamas for an update in the case of Lynette Hooker, who went missing there in early April. [30:20] dinghy going from Hopetown to Elbow Key when Lynette fell overboard with the keys to the dinghy. That's right. After you reported her missing, the Royal Bahamas Police set off searching for Lynette but didn't find her. Lynette's daughter... [30:33] Carly told me that she did not buy Brian's story from the get-go, and she mentioned problems in the marriage. They have history of not getting along, especially when they drink. Brian was taken into custody and questioned. He was released five days later. Yes. As you know, he said all along that he had nothing to do with her disappearance, and he vowed to keep looking for her. So we know the couple's boat, called Soulmate, was seized in Florida in May. Brad, what is new? [31:03] A U.S. official told NBC News last week that after examining the boat's GPS, it looks like Brian might have given them the wrong location for where Lynette went missing. So U.S. divers arrived in the Bahamas last week and started looking for her in a different spot, the Abaco Sea. According to photos obtained by NBC News, cadaver dogs were also taken to the boatyard where Brian was on the day he reported Lynette missing. On Monday, authorities announced that no body was found.

[31:33] has concluded and that the investigation is ongoing. They encourage anyone with information to come forward. [31:40] Okay, thank you so much for these updates, Brad. You're welcome. [31:45] For our final segment this week, we wanted to talk about a case that has sparked intense debate across social media, the case of Mackenzie Schirrilla. In 2023, the Ohio teenager was convicted by a judge of murdering her boyfriend, Dominic Russo, and a friend, 19-year-old Davion Flanagan. Both were passengers in Mackenzie's car [32:10] into a brick wall, killing them both. A recent Netflix documentary on the case called The Crash has been a breakout hit since its debut in May, with over 58 million views worldwide so far. It features Mackenzie's first-ever interview. I've never spoke before, and I never told my side of the story, but I just want to say my truth and... [32:34] I just know myself and I know I'm not [32:37] A monster. But not all of the renewed attention on the case has been welcomed. Some of the victims' family members are speaking out. She's a psychopath. A stone-cold psychopath. She has no remorse. She's continuing to lie. You know, I wish she was—I wish I didn't hear her name anymore. I asked Emily Simpson, my friend and fellow True Crime podcast host, to come on the show to talk about the case and the documentary's fallout. Emily, who is a lawyer, is no stranger to being in the spotlight,

[33:07] Brunette. She's also a cast member on The Real Housewives of Orange County. Hey, Emily, welcome back to the podcast. Hi, Andrea. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yes. Well, you are the one who actually turned me on to this documentary. Thank you. Of course. And then I saw that our NBC Studios team was also covering it for their video podcast, Allegedly, on Netflix. So, Emily, what was your takeaway from Mackenzie's interview in the doc? I do like the fact that they showed that she [33:37] beginning of her interview. She's just sitting there answering questions, constantly talking about she wanted to make sure she hammered in the intent, that there was no intent. They showed a little bit of her conversation with her attorney saying, basically, did I nail it? Did I make all the points that there was no intent? Part of, I think, why people are so interested in this is because of the division, right? Like, which side are you on? Prosecutors said that Mackenzie intentionally drove her car into the wall. But in her Netflix interview, she blamed what happened [34:07] POTS, a nervous system disorder. So Mackenzie says she blacked out before the crash. But when we talk about the medical condition, I feel like it doesn't take a medical expert or a doctor to think if she did have some type of medical episode where she did pass out or blacked out, wouldn't your hands, your body, it would have gone relaxed. The fact that the car was 100 miles per hour, her foot never came off the gas. To me, it means that she had to grip tightly to keep that

[34:37] an hour straight into a wall. [34:39] And Emily, from behind bars, Mackenzie appears well aware of the attention that her story is receiving. In a recently released undated jail call, and we don't know if this conversation was before or after the doc came out, Mackenzie spoke with an unidentified friend about the growing interest in her case, and even expressed hope that one very famous advocate might take notice. Let's take a listen to that call. [35:09] Like, I mean, that's the only thing that might be good about the whole media thing. Maybe Kim will see it. [35:14] How do I reach out to her? [35:16] I don't know. You have to figure out because I'm real nervous and I want Kim Kardashian to be my lawyer. So this is now her saying she wants Kim Kardashian to be her lawyer. Why not Emily Simpson? Well, first of all, can we just say that Kim is not an attorney? Can we just make that clear? Did she finally pass the baby bar? She did pass the baby bar, but she did not pass the big old bar. [35:38] Maybe choose someone else with more experience. So in the Netflix documentary, Emily, we learned that before the crash, [35:46] social media. She aspired or appeared to aspire to become a model or an influencer. And some of her posts were even introduced as evidence during her trial. Emily, you as a lawyer and someone, you have your own huge social media presence. Do you think Mackenzie's online persona might have worked against her in court? Oh, it absolutely worked against her. I don't know if you saw. The prosecution was smart to bring up all her social media posts in front of the judge. And,

[36:16] just a couple months after the crash and posting about it, the Halloween costumes. It just shows just a lack of accountability, a lack of remorse. As for the victims in this case, Davian and Dominic, their families were also featured in the documentary. Dominic's sister, Christine Russo, says the aftermath has not been easy. She talked to NBC affiliate WKYC about some of the unwelcome attention it's brought from people online. [36:46] It's just so cruel. [36:47] I just wanted to spread awareness on [36:50] You know, not clicking on those things and not giving that kind of disgusting things attention because there are actually grieving families behind this entertainment that's out there for everybody else. So actually, I did do an interview yesterday with Christine. Oh, okay. And Christine and the other family, the Flanagans, are working very hard to change the Son of Sam law in Ohio, but, you know, hopefully nationwide. Emily, just tell us a little bit about the Son of Sam laws. What are they intended for? [37:20] one that commits a violent crime, so, you know, rape, murder, doesn't then get to benefit from that crime by receiving profits from writing a book and publishing and doing interviews and things like that. I believe it was written in the 70s. So it has not progressed to this digital age where people are able to profit from, you know, having a social media presence. And so I know that Christine Russo and the Flanagan family were working to change that. So we're going to follow

[37:50] After being convicted, she was sentenced to 15 years to life and will not be eligible for parole until 2037. Something tells me we haven't heard the last of Mackenzie or this case. Emily, I knew you were the perfect person to bring on to talk about this topic. So we're so grateful that you joined us. Thank you. Well, thanks for having me, Andrea. I appreciate it. We can't wait to have you back on Legally Brunette. Thank you. And you can catch updates on the case on Emily's podcast, as she said, Legally Brunette, or right here on Dateline True Crime Weekly. [38:20] The Crash is available on Netflix, and you can find the video podcast, allegedly, also on Netflix. [38:29] That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. Don't forget to check out Keith's new original podcast series, Five Miles From Home. It's a chilling story about the murder of a high school track star in a desert town. Mikayla Mickey Costanzo was just like any other teen, but what happened to her was the ultimate act of betrayal. [38:50] I had gotten a text saying that he had had her. [38:54] And I said, I know where she's at. Let's go. Episodes one and two are out now wherever you get your podcasts. To get early access to new episodes ad-free, subscribe to Dateline Premium. And coming up this Friday, Jose Diaz-Balart has his first ever Dateline episode. And it's a good one. You know when you're coming out of a breakup, sometimes you just want to change? That's exactly what 40-year-old Anna Konezovich was looking for when she left her life in Florida behind

[39:24] in December 2023. [39:26] It was supposed to be an exciting new chapter, full of adventure and new experiences. But just a few months into that journey, Anna vanished. I wanted to come here and just do everything that I can in my power to find my friend. Watch Missing Anna this Friday at 10, 9 central on Dateline on NBC. Thanks for listening. [39:47] Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey, Kiani Reed, and Rebecca Glazer. Our associate producers are Ellery Gladstone-Groth and Aria Young. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Kurloff. Veronica Mazzaka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. All right. Happy whatever it is. Thursday. [40:15] Bye. [40:23] With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. He wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. [40:41] "'What's in your wallet?' [40:42] Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC.