#2426 - Cameron Hanes & Adam Greentree

[00:00] Joe Rogan podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day! [00:12] Hey! We're live? Hey ya! Gentlemen, what's happening? What is going on? Good to see you guys again. Bo Hunting Brothers. Yeah, we were just talking about the mountain lion that we have in the lobby and how insane that thing is. So Adam, you shot that mountain lion when? [00:26] I think it was about six or seven years ago now. And you ate it, and I ate some of it. You sent some to me. [00:32] It's really good, believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen. You wouldn't think so, but it's incredible. Everybody says it's like, the way they describe it is like a, I think Rinella said this, a superior pork. Yeah. Yeah. [00:42] Yeah, it's like I think of it as a cross between venison and chicken. [00:47] And I only did it quick on the barbecue, and I'm not a great cook, but it was that tender and that tasty. Yeah. [00:53] But the story behind the mountain lion is nuts. Like that was like a murderous mountain lion. [00:58] It was – I felt – [01:00] a bit funny about it to start with because... [01:02] like the dogs do all the hunting right the dogs smell it dogs find it they put it up in a tree but the further i looked into it i'm like well you need the tree because you want to sex it and you want to age it you know you want to make sure it's a lion that's you know old and it has to be a male to shoot it in colorado at least at the time you had to anyway so it was actually the perfect way to hunt but then seeing how destructive that individual line was at least i was telling cam

[01:32] It must have grabbed it on the neck, and the cow couldn't move, you know, but it was still fully alive internally, and vocally it was still alive. And when we got there, the mountain lion was, like, eating it from its rear in, and it had been there for at least an hour or two because there was quite a lot of meat that had been eaten out from the cow's ass. [01:55] And kicking its hooves. Yeah, but the cow couldn't get up, so it was literally eating it while it was still alive. [02:02] And as the dogs are running down there, you could hear this cow off in the distance just like... [02:07] screaming like mooing flat out and you could tell something was wrong the dogs got there the line ran off uh we end up calling the rancher in the rancher come out put the cow out of its misery still screaming on the ground right in front of me i was hey i was teared up like you know like i don't like suffering like the next person um so it was a very horrible moment so then it was like [02:30] now i'm into it like now i'm into finding this lion it's like a werewolf's loose in your town you know having that how much did that cat weigh by the way i by the way i i held it up for size and um i could hold it for maybe 30 seconds and i literally couldn't hold it up anymore and i was trying to show the size of [02:52] you know how big that line was. It looks like it's at least 150 pounds. Yeah it's giant so it's like 170 that's what you think it would be on the paw I guess as it were. Yeah yeah yeah live.

[03:02] yeah that's a big animal we were standing out in front of it like going imagine if this thing jumped on you it's a living monster it is a monster it's a real monster and he's like oh they had they kill their animal their prey first no they'll just make sure it doesn't move anymore yeah just whatever's good they'll just start eating it whatever's good for eating it's on [03:23] We're the only thing that has compassion in the wild. You know, like putting it out of the misery like the rancher did. You know, that's one thing about hunters, ranchers. We do appreciate life and death, and there is a time where, hey, let's put it out of its misery. [03:38] Yeah, it's... [03:38] Man is the only one who thinks about that. An animal, they'll just start eating. They could care less about, they don't even know about pain really or being merciful or anything like that. It's just what we do. Yeah, I always say like the lion in Africa, like it stripes a zebra across the back end and the zebra gets away and it's just got like blood pouring out of it and it's got this horrible wound that it's going to have to live with. That lion has not lost any sleep over that ever in its life. [04:08] You know, it's just fascinating that all these different creatures exist with us because we're so insulated for the most part. Like most people are so insulated living in cities, traveling on buses and planes and cars and never, never seeing a thing like this in real life. And you realize, like, at the same time where you're going to Starbucks and, you know, you're picking out the new iPhone.

[04:33] There's a lion running full speed at a herd of zebras right now. Yeah. Like right now in the world, there's a lion full speed at the zebra and it's going to tackle it. It's going to grab it by its face. [04:47] and [04:48] All these animals exist to keep each other in check. That's the real beauty of nature. And you really see it when... [04:55] We saw that we were out yesterday, Cam and I were, we were hunting for pigs and we saw a feral cat make a pounce on a mouse. Like we were in the perfect, it was one of the coolest things. Because even though like it's a kitty cat, like a little tiny kitty cat, it was fluffy too, it was kind of cute. We watched a predator in the rare moment when you see him executing a kill. [05:17] I mean, it was only a feral cat, but it was still. We saw his little butt wiggle. We saw that thing that they do where they get ding and then up in the air. We're like, that is cool. It was so wild. And that's going on. [05:30] multiple places on our planet right now, as you said. Everywhere. Yeah. It's like if you could have like zoom in on a little camera, all these little interactions of predator prey or – [05:41] I mean, that's happening. Well, if you could see it all at once, like if there was a camera on every single predator, prey encounter simultaneously in the world, and it was broadcast on a screen that was like 700 feet high, you would think, oh, my God, we're at war. There's a war in the natural world. It's a constant war. Just cats alone. Have you ever seen the numbers of what feral cats alone just house cats kill? It's literally in the billions in North America.

[06:11] non-stop but imagine how many rats there would be if the cats weren't out there oh yeah 100 like it's all there's a balance to it all oh my god these cats are killing everything right imagine how many fucking mice would be out there if there weren't cats yeah that's true it's all balance yeah that uh to adam's point about his lion in colorado it's so managed um that that [06:34] That animal actually probably could have been killed off... [06:39] like because it was killing livestock yeah you know but when you kill an lion in colorado it's very detailed very documented and tracked it's like you can only take like in the unit i was hunting lion i didn't kill one but you could only kill 35 in the year and every time a lion comes in they they catalog it check it um get it you know all the information in there and then that's [07:03] One of the 35, once you reach 35 quota, you're done. You're done. Let's put this in perspective because if that doesn't happen, and by the way, all that money goes back to the state, goes to game wardens. It helps everybody. It helps conservation. If you don't have that, you know what you have? You have what's going on in Japan where Japan is having massive brown bear attacks. [07:23] So just last year, they had a kill. I think it was 1,000. It's at least 1,000. I think it was more than 1,000 bears last year. Right. And this year is projected to be even higher than last year. So the bears at the fucking military has to go in, and they're having a war on giant brown bears. They're killing, I don't know, how many people already this year? A shit ton. Yeah. A shit ton. Jamie, put that into perplexity, our sponsor.

[07:51] How many people have been killed in Japan by grizzly bears? Well, they're not grizzly bears, but they're essentially brown bears. They're a type of brown bear, yeah. Brown bear. [07:58] record surge of brown bear attacks in 2025 with at least 13 fatalities and over 200 injuries. Holy fuck. [08:07] Making it the deadliest year for bear attacks in recent history. Majority of fatal attacks have occurred in Hokkaido, where brown bears are more prevalent, and the number of attacks has prompted emergency responses, including the deployment of military personnel in some regions. Dude, I've been hearing people in Montana and people in Wyoming that have been saying, we're seeing more brown bears than ever before. Guys are going on elk hunts and get freaked out. [08:37] Like, they are totally fearless. They've never been hunted, so they have no fear of humans. How many guys have you heard where the gun goes off and the bear shows up after the gun goes off because it knows that the elk is down or the moose is down? Like a dinner bell. Like a dinner bell. This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, Traeger is a game changer. This isn't just a grill. [09:07] flavor thanks to the all-natural hardwood pellets that fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake. That's it. Just wood and fire and flavor. And what's truly wild is how easy it is. Just set the temp, load the grill, and let Traeger handle the rest. Grill steak, smoked ribs, even baked pizza, all on one grill. If you're into fire, flavor, and doing things right, check out Traeger Grills.

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[11:08] up with code rogan spend five bucks to get 200 in rewards within 21 days that's code rogan in partnership with draft kings the crown is yours if you or someone you know has a gambling problem crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 1-800-GAMBLER 21 and over illinois only eligibility restrictions apply bonus bets expire seven days after issuance for additional terms and responsible gaming resources cdkng.co slash audio limited time offer [11:36] I flew into Hokkaido. Japan had a period where they would let foreigners hunt, and it had to be with a bow. And I was chasing seeker stags over there, and I had no idea they had a brown bear at all. And I was going through this big reedy area, like, you know, the reeds are up above your head, and there was just a game trail going in there that the deer had been using. [12:06] maybe like where the deer had been bedded. [12:08] And I got in there, and there was a seeker deer, just like the rib cage, all chewed out. And it was just a big, muddy clearing where this brown bear had got in there and just, like, rolled around with this carcass. But the prints in the mud were like that. I had no idea there was even bears there. Wait a minute. What year is this? Oh... [12:29] It'd have to be 10 or 11 years ago now. [12:32] But Google is still around, right? [12:33] Yeah. You didn't check? [12:35] You didn't go, hey, what's in the area? I started messaging the outfitter and being like, dude, there's bears here. Look at that bear. Yeah. And then he started telling me that.

[12:47] that some of the biggest brown bears there is bro that bear fucked up that guy's hood that's a big that's a big bear but the police force because i believe there was an unarmed police force at the time they had an issue with a bear where it had killed two hunters there and he had to go in and shoot this bear he had photos on a tractor and i don't do the gruesome photos but he's just flicking through his phone and the next photo is a [13:12] guy with his face missing from this... [13:15] brown bear attack. And another photo, the bear, when he went in to shoot the bear, the bear was in a stream holding the guy... [13:23] down in the water eating him in the water oh and it like so yeah pretty gruesome so it's pretty full on but up until that point i'd never even knew there was a brown bear in japan before you go someplace with a bow that makes sense do a cursory internet search i'm from australia like come on you guys have the internet shut the fuck up you were telling me some starling things going by they're way they're way behind in australia about that one they just got [13:53] hunter and he doesn't check to see if there's enormous monsters of the unknown oh that's cute that's cute look there's plenty of unknown out there you know you don't need to add to it it's uh it's all disappearing all unknowns disappear because of the internet a little bit another layer to that japan story is the reason why they have to deploy the military is because all the hunters are aging out so there was hunters there but because hunting is kind of like this

[14:23] There's not enough hunters, so they have to get the military involved. Otherwise, it would be hunters like, you know, you going over there. And they've talked about, like, I mean, I know there's Americans who would volunteer to do it, but that's another part of it is this next generation just isn't hunting. I have another question. Jamie, put this into perplexity, please. How many mountain lions were killed with depredation tags in 2024 in California? [14:49] Because what I had read on a forum, so it has to be correct because those guys are all experts. I had read that an equal number of mountain lions had been killed with depredation tags by experts with dogs to bring them in than if they had given tags out. [15:08] So if they had given tags out and let people mountain lion hunt, you would have the exact same amount. [15:13] of mountain lions that they had to kill. [15:15] and instead of that, you would have revenue. Yeah, money going. Instead of paying. Instead of the opposite. Right, instead of paying. And the collection of the meat, obviously. All right, California has not yet published a full 2025 total, but the best available data as of July 2025 shows at least 167 mountain lions reported taken under depredation permits in 2020 and 166 in 2022, with annual totals of over 100 in recent years. So every year they have to kill at least 100 mountain lions. Yeah. [15:45] more. It looks like 67 more, 66 more. And I would say it's only went up since then. Yeah. Well, the thing is like, they're doing nothing to curb the population. And this is the thing is like, people go, Oh, it's okay. Let nature do its thing. No, it doesn't do its thing. It kills your dog. Okay. One of the things they found out in San Francisco in the Bay area was when they do shoot these mountain lions, they've done an analysis of their diet. It's 50% dogs and cats. Wow. 50%

[16:15] people's pets. [16:16] That means you are, if you're a dog lover, you're allowing a monster to eat your dog because you think that's the right thing to do and to be kind with nature. Hey, we know you have to hunt them. You have to get them the fuck away from you. [16:31] and keep a healthy population of them. And if you don't do that, it comes back to bite you in the dick. Here's one other search, Jamie. Can you see how many mountain lions were taken in Oregon? [16:41] Legally, because that would be like Oregon's, of course, just right north of California. Let's compare the legal harvest harvest. [16:48] In an estate that hunts, we can't use dogs, but you can kill them when you see them. You can buy a tag in the season. Then it's very difficult to kill them, right, if you can't use dogs? To do that, they have to have the season open all year, and they just hope enough for getting killed. But then they still have to kill depredation. And is that a situation where you buy a mountain lion tag, just an extra tag, and you just have it just in case you run into one? So if you're out in the wilderness and you're hunting elk, but you have a mountain lion tag. Yeah. [17:17] That's it. So we were hoping, you know, if you see one, basically I have a bear tag, lion tag. [17:23] It says Oregon kills far more cougars each year than California, but those Oregon numbers come mainly from sport hunting and agency control, not from depredation tags. [17:34] oh wait a minute, agency controls what we're looking at, not depredation. [17:38] Um... [17:39] So what is the numbers here? 160. Reword the question. Yeah, let's reword the question and ask how many were killed in California.

[17:47] from agency control. Put that in there. How many mountain lions were killed in California [17:55] through agency control. [17:57] Thank you. [17:59] Because we were just looking at depredation tax, which is like what a hunter – or excuse me, a farmer gets. So it says in Oregon that – [18:07] We could kill 970, but they never kill that many. Okay. They did not publish a clean statewide tally labeled specifically as agency control mountain lion kills. And current official tables group most lethal removals under depredation permits rather than separate agency control category. As a result, there's no single publicly available number that states how many mountain lions were killed through agency control alone. Let's just put this in. [18:37] California. [18:38] in 2024, just period. [18:41] Let's just ask that question. [18:43] I don't even know where we'd get this data. [18:45] I don't know. [18:48] It'd have to be fish and game. [18:51] Thank you. [18:52] Thank you. [18:56] Mm-hmm. [18:57] Thank you. [19:00] 20. [19:02] Hmm, that doesn't make any sense. Oh, so they're saying this figure does not include deaths from vehicles, but that's not true, because they just said earlier that it was 100 and... Okay. [19:16] and 222 depredation permits,

[19:19] Out of those permits, 52 authorized lethal take and 20 mountain lions were actually reported as lethally taken on depredation permits. That's weird. This is totally different numbers than it was given us before. So now it's only saying it was 52 authorized lethal ones. [19:33] Yeah. [19:34] I don't know [19:37] The holidays are in full swing and so are the Grinches out there trying to steal your data and personal information. But there's a simple and easy way to protect yourself and that's with ExpressVPN. ExpressVPN is an app that hides your IP address and reroutes 100% of your online activity through secure encrypted servers. [20:07] keeps hackers from getting a hold of your sensitive financial data, even on unsecured public Wi-Fi. And right now, the VPN that's rated number one by the experts at The Verge and CNET is offering three different plans, allowing you to customize your experience. Their basic plan starts as low as $3.49 a month. That's less than 12 cents a day. You can protect your online data for cheap and still have money for gifts and eggnog. [20:37] to get ExpressVPN at its lowest price ever, plus four months extra of service. [20:43] Just tap the banner or go to expressvpn.com slash Rogan. Again, that's expressvpn.com slash Rogan for a price as low as $3.49 a month, plus four extra months of service, expressvpn.com slash Rogan.

[21:13] the link in the description. [21:15] It says of the permits, 52 were authorized to kill them. So it says lethal take. So it's authorized to kill them. And 20 were actually reported as lethally killed. So they're saying it's only 20. That seems coochy. But that is... [21:31] That's for like a ranch owner to do the killing. [21:34] Okay. So they say, hey, this lion's been killing my calves 480 times. And 222 of those, they said, okay, go ahead and kill the lion. Okay, right. So this is permits that were released rather than the agency doing the depredation work. Right. So you would add this total to the other number we have. Right. Because the depredation thing, too, you've got to think it's ranchers, right? So these guys are all out in the middle of nowhere. A lot of the depredations, though, that they might be listing is what we were talking about with San Francisco, [22:04] that they're eating people's cats and dogs. [22:07] So maybe they get depredations. It's not like – but you can't give it out to the fucking homeowner. [22:12] So you only give those tags out to ranchers, it seems like. Yeah, to people that have livestock that's being lost. And the rest of the depredation is probably done by some sort of a government guy. They would call it something other than depredation. Do you think he uses dogs? How do you think they get them? Yeah, or snare. Like in Oregon... [22:31] Wayne has done this where people, they're losing their goats, their calves, something like sheep, something like that. And then they'll let you snare it. [22:40] So you can go in there, you take pictures of the animals that are killed. And another... Snarin is brutal.

[22:47] Yeah. Oof. Or trap. Trap. Basically. Like a foot trap. It's a foothold. Yeah. In Texas, they treat them like coyotes. Yeah. You just whack them. [22:57] Yeah, well... I think that's the way to go. Because I think they're so hard to see. They're so hard to find. Different politics. I've seen... [23:04] maybe two in all the hunting that I've done, just naturally in the wild. [23:09] And you would have seen more, but it's not a big number. They're out there, but they're just so sneaky, right? Oh, they're so fucking sneaky. I told you the story. We saw the one in Utah with Colton. Yeah, a huge one. Like that one. He was like as big as yours. It was fucking terrifying. Inside of a car, 30 yards away, and I'm shit in my pants. I'm not even. Yeah. And we're armed. Yeah. And we have bows. The difference between Oregon and California and Texas, you know, Texas being able to shoot them like coyotes, that's politics. Yeah. [23:39] Of course, the West Coast is liberal. Well, Utah changed it, though. Utah has it now like coyotes. [23:44] Perfect. Yeah. That's how it should be. I think there has to be management behind it. I don't even know if you have to have a tag in Utah anymore. [23:52] Let's find out. Put that search in. Do you need a tag to hunt mountain lion in Utah? Maybe they just give out over-the-counter tags to anybody who wants them, and they're still collecting revenue, which is ideal. That's the best way to do it. And if the numbers are great enough, then that's easy. But Texas doesn't even do that. They go, no, we don't want to get involved. You go ahead and shoot them. And it's a fucking monster in your backyard. [24:16] Yeah. [24:16] Business is coming from someone who loves them.

[24:18] Yeah. I love them. I love mountain lions. They're amazing. Okay. Yes, you must have a valid Utah hunting or combination hunting fishing license to hunt mountain lions, but you do not need a separate cougar tag. Okay. So it is like a coyote. [24:31] So it's year-round harvest for licensed hunters, and you just have to get it checked in after you kill. Right. Within 48 hours. Which is also smart. Yeah. Because they want to know what it's been eating. Now, that's how you do it. That's what I've done with mine. That's how you do it. Utah, way to go. Good job, Utah. That's the right way to do it. And, of course, you should have a hunting license. Yeah. I think you have to have one in Texas as well to hunt anything. You know, talking about this. Actually, that's not true, right? What? No, I'm thinking that. No, I think in Texas you don't even need a hunting license to hunt exotics. [24:58] No, not if they're on a private. Right. I think you just go hunt them. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. Um... [25:05] Talking about politics in different areas, it reminds me of, in B.C., they outlawed grizzly hunting. [25:12] just recently, maybe last week, you know a grizzly attacked a school group. Oh, I've read about that. You see that? Yeah. That's another thing. So we're in the cities who control a lot of the voting groups [25:23] power of the, that's a province, but states here, is that the city's determinant and people living in the cities don't know what the fuck's going on in the wilderness. So they vote, oh, I love lions. I love grizzly bear. I love wolves. We need to have more of them. Meanwhile, the people out in the mountains are actually dealing with this shit. And so Vancouver, if we're talking BC specifically, Vancouver pretty much makes the decisions for [25:47] for British Columbia. They said no more grizzly hunting and now it's just, you know, grizzly bear out of control. Did you ever meet my friend Mike Hawkridge? Yeah, we went to dinner after a fight once. That's right. One of the steakhouses in Vegas, right? Mike's great. And he and Ben O'Brien took me on a moose hunt once. And he was telling me that this was before the grizzly bear ban.

[26:08] He was like, there are so many of them. And he had to shoot one from six feet away. One was breaking into a cabin, and he had to shoot it from six feet away. Dude, like... [26:19] They're terrifying up there. [26:21] They have so many of them, and they have wolves everywhere. [26:25] We stumbled on a wolf kill. [26:27] We got there, you know, it was... [26:30] Probably a day old. I don't know. But it was nothing but hair. That was the thing that shocked me. What did it use to be? A moose calf. Oh, okay. And there was nothing but hair. That was what was weird. It was like I didn't anticipate seeing so much hair. Like the moose hair was everywhere. Just everywhere. I thought it would be like a dead animal, but it was just basically bones. And there was like a tiny bit of meat on corners of the bones. And hair. Everywhere. Yeah. It was just like they were like, pow! [27:00] Just tearing into this moose cap and coughing up hair. I didn't see one when I was up there. Although I think we did see one in the distance when we were at John and Jen's place. We saw one we thought it was a bear or we thought it was a wolf run across the road. I was either with you or I was with Ben. Yeah. Yeah. [27:18] I don't remember who it was, but I've never seen a wolf in the wild. Right. Like a real, like absolute, like look at him. Holy shit, it's a wolf. Yeah. Yeah. [27:24] they look at you in a certain way oh bro like one of the first trips i ever did to canada was up in northwest territories and i actually thought it was caribou coming down the river like just the color of the wolves this similar to a caribou and then i worked out our wolves and the guy that i was with he's like that's a pack of wolves and i'm like can i call him in oh god and he's adam green tree what's wrong with he's like yeah and then i got up against the tree and i just started

[27:54] And this whole pack come in. Like a wounded rabbit call? You'd never seen them come in. They were like up in our vision up there. Yeah, like a rabbit call, distressed rabbit. And the next minute, they was just like, [28:05] They were fully surrounding us and just come in. It was freaking cool. But I just remember they could fully see me at that point and I was still just like looking through me. And I was like, yeah, that's sick. You ever hear Dudley's story? When Dudley and some guy that he was with in BC, I think it was BC, I'm pretty sure. Or no, it was Alberta. They killed a... [28:28] I think it was an elk. [28:31] But when they killed it, they killed it essentially on top of where the wolves did, like right there. And wolves started circling around them and. [28:42] The guide had like one round in his rifle and Dudley had like two arrows or three arrows left and they're surrounded by wolves. And Dudley shot two of them with a bow and arrow and the guide shot one with a rifle. [28:56] They shot three wolves. Three wolves. He said there was, like, there were surrounding them. He said it was the freakiest fucking thing he's ever experienced. Yeah, it wouldn't have been a great feeling. He told the story on the podcast, and it was just, like, fuck that, man. You only have two bullets, you fucking asshole? Like, what is wrong with you? Two bullets and one life. Like, what are you, what? What the fuck are you doing, man? You know there's wolves out there. [29:20] Killed a bull in New Mexico one year, and I killed it late in the afternoon. So we did a pack out. This is just going back to the mountain lion story. We did a pack out with meat, went back in, in the dark with head torches.

[29:35] And as we're walking in, I seen a couple of eyes or whatever, and it was just like deer, mule deer or something like that. And then I'm like, oh, there's another deer up in front of us. And as we got closer, the eyes were too high. And it's just like, no, that's not a deer. And it was a mountain lion up in the tree. Like, it was... [29:53] Right up in the tree. There was the kill there. That lion stayed in the tree while we grabbed more meat and packed it out. You grabbed his meat? Yeah. The mountain lion's meat? Well, it was his kill. Oh, it was your kill. It was my kill. Oh. And I was going back in for it and just thinking it was a set of deer eyes. And as we're walking up, the eyes were like up in the tree. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. [30:15] That's like so I've only seen two that's one of them and it was in the dark and I swear if it was daylight I would have seen one of my whole entire hunting did you see cam's brother's story on on Instagram? I [30:26] Oh, my God. Cam's brother was running late at night in California. Should we play it? Yeah. Did we ever play it on the show? I think we might have. We might have. Did you? Yeah. Yeah. I know you mentioned it. [30:39] fucking terrifying. Yeah, yeah. It's terrifying. I've never seen that in Australia, by the way. What's your brother's name again? Taylor. Taylor. It's like T-Spike. Yeah, yeah, Taylor. So it's my... It's... [30:52] My stepdad and mom had two kids, Taylor and Megan. Oh, okay. So those are my brothers, brother and sister. And he does ultras too, right? Yeah, he's actually really good. [31:03] Yeah. He seemed like one of them dudes who had to get it in. He had to get it in at night. He did a 300-mile race just last year. He was competing, trying to win the thing, of course, but got second. Wow. The Arizona Monster 300. That's insane. Oh, my God. That hurts my hips and my joints. That's the level he's at. 300 miles or 300 kilometers? Miles. That makes it so much worse. You've been thinking about kilometers. I thought you're an American now.

[31:34] Yeah. We were trying to teach you inches the other night. It's got shit under my lip for some reason. It's an American thing. You guys don't have ouches. It's probably illegal over there. Probably. They'll take it away. Government's going to control it. Yeah. How's that working out? You can do that, but you have to wear a mask. Did you find Taylor's video? I think it's on his Instagram. Yeah, it is. It's definitely. Did I send it to you at one point in time, maybe? I just found a video of you talking about it. Ah. Unless he took it down. I don't think he took it down. What is his Instagram handle? [32:03] Yeah. [32:04] It's T-spike, something like that. [32:06] T-Spike something. Yeah, I'll find it. T-Spike, 300 miles. I just had... [32:11] Coming in second place in 300 miles is bananas. That's insane. Yeah. And meanwhile, how much difference was there between him and number one? I think a couple hours probably. Oh, God. Wow. That's insane. Oh, God. But it took, I think he did it in 88 hours. [32:28] That is nuts, man. That's a serious effort. That is a serious effort. There's some freaks out there for sure. I'll do it one day. He's one of them. Are you going to do it one day for real? Yeah. Tspike2. A couple more visits away as well will be good. What, Jamie? I don't know where the video is. Okay, I'll find it. [32:42] I'll find it. Yeah, he's – oh, it's me talking about it. That's what – Oh, he must have re-shared that or something. Yeah, here it is. I found it right away. It's just his face. When you see his face staring at the camera, it says lying – oh, you got it? Okay. [32:55] It says Lion update. Yeah, this is it. Give me some volume.

[33:03] I was coming down the trail last night just after dark. [33:07] and I see these green eyes off to the side of the trail [33:11] I mean, right on the side of the trail, what I thought was a coyote. [33:14] I just kind of yelled. [33:15] And then when it stood up, I realized, [33:17] It was a fucking mountain lion. [33:19] I took off running as hard as I could and I looked over my shoulder and it was right behind me. [33:26] I ran for probably 100 yards and realized it wasn't giving up, and I turned around, and I kicked rocks, and I jumped up and down, and I screamed at the top of my lungs. [33:36] And this thing did not care. [33:38] I did that a few times to the point that [33:41] At one point, I almost stopped. [33:43] I'm just going to lay down here and die because [33:46] I'm not going to outrun this fucking thing. [33:49] Another time it got really close to me and I thought I had no choice but to try to scare it. [33:54] and I [33:56] turned and I screamed and I kicked rocks. I mean, to the point it was, I mean, it was right, right there. [34:02] and [34:03] I... [34:04] finally decided [34:05] Well... [34:06] You just got to run. [34:07] Run for your fucking life. [34:09] I've done some crazy shit in my life. I've been pretty scared, but this [34:13] This was next level. [34:14] This was next level. It terrified me. [34:17] Um... [34:19] You know, I think maybe if I'd had a gun, I could have done something. Pepper spray, I don't think. [34:25] It was so close that I would have probably pepper sprayed myself. [34:29] So... [34:30] I don't know. Um... [34:32] I was a half mile from the city

[34:34] in Lake Forest, California. I mean, like, [34:37] straight up... [34:38] I could hear dogs barking. And at one point, I thought maybe that's what... [34:42] kinda detoured it but [34:45] They said he didn't care. [34:46] and [34:47] So. [34:48] This morning I'm going to ride the bike. Probably won't go back out there in the dark. I did wait around for the Sheriff's Department and fishing game. [34:57] because there was other hikers on the trail that were above me that would have had to have come down. [35:02] and I... [35:03] I just don't know how other people would have responded. Like I said, I've done some scary shit. [35:09] I've been in the woods my whole life. [35:11] But this was next level. [35:13] It was terrifying. [35:14] But I'm all good. [35:15] um... [35:16] Back at it, right? [35:18] I guess if this only happens one time in your life, I got it out of the way. [35:22] I'm a lucky fucker. [35:23] Have a good day, all. Keep at it. [35:25] Doesn't work like that. Oof. [35:28] Yeah. Oof. That's wild. That is the consequences of letting monsters live in your neighborhood. Yeah. That's real. And all these wilderness-loving people... [35:39] I guarantee you're not out there as much as that guy is. I guarantee you're not out there as much as you are or you are. That's the difference between people that really understand what we're talking about and people that are looking at this from this knee-jerk love and compassion for nature perspective. Well, back to what Cam said. It's like the majority of the votes are people that don't. [35:58] get in that environment yeah you know and it's not just about hunting that's for farmers anywhere as well there's people in the city that are making votes for people that live in the country and the lifestyle is completely different and they don't understand what they're talking about especially the bc band like we're gonna ban trophy hunting trophy hunting's bad no but what about monster control isn't that good i'm on fucking team people okay i love animals but i am on team people imagine if they knew

[36:26] how soft we were they don't have to spit out hair like the flesh is right here it's soft it's so easy to get into because they they usually go in at the stomach you know or the ass it's like our stomach how soft those are straight for the organs yeah it's right right to the good stuff yeah not good and it's like new even i don't think people like even a dog can turn into like a [36:49] I killed a buck, you know, before we went on that last hunt. I killed a buck. And, like, for the treat for the dog, you cut off the nuts. [36:57] So it's got hide on it. It's got the buck's nuts, basically. Dog takes off. They're just like ripping into it. It's like delicacy, right? That's just a normal dog. So a lion who's born and bred to kill, I mean, that's just the level of what animals do. Your liver is a ribeye, and they haven't eaten in a week. You're like, oh, baby. Look at that liver. It's right there. [37:27] farmer's dog here's a fun fact research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time so why is feeding vague scoops of ultra processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners healthy alternatives exist and trust me i know [37:51] I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier and isn't getting more time.

[38:21] to get best friends something every dog owner wants the answer to that is [38:26] is yes, obviously. So try the Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. [38:35] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. [38:43] This episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening to this podcast on your phone? If you are chronically online, like most of us are these days, your wireless network should be too. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G and unlimited hotspot, all powered by Verizon's 5G network. The perks of big wireless for half the cost. [39:13] designed to keep you connected and no contract holding you back. Switch today at visible.com. Plan start at just $25 a month or get our premium visible plus pro plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code Rogan, an exclusive offer for podcast listeners. [39:37] Yep. [39:38] Yeah. And those the dogs there that that deer camp, you give them like a part of the I don't know, there's some skin. It's not the flank steak, but it's just some skin there that sometimes you cut off that goes over the stomach and run off. Eat that eat pounds and pounds of meat, a regular dog. So a lion. Yeah, they'll eat. What they do is they just eat as much meat as they can. They just kind of lay around. So that's the time to actually run from a lion is after a big meal.

[40:08] I mean, because their stomachs are full of meat. Maybe that's why Taylor, maybe that lion that chased him had just killed a deer and was full of protein. But, you know, they still hunt. That's what they do. It's their instinct. But sometimes you can time it right, and maybe that saves your life. Yeah, geez. Crazy. That's not a risk we should be taking. No. If you can avoid it, it's always better. It's like they're so hard to find. People don't understand. You're not going to put a dent in their population. This is not like any other. It's not like deer. [40:38] populate a deer, like an environment of deer. If you went crazy... [40:42] and hunted them all and said let's eradicate all the deer every hunter you can shoot as many deer as you want just let's go do it right now you can get rid of all the deer you ain't ever doing that with cats yeah they're too sneaky not now not now even in australia with buffalo [40:57] You can fly and eliminate a lot of stuff. Pigs here, deer, buffalo down there, the water buffalo, but... [41:06] You're not doing helicopter killing of lions. No. You can do wolves. You can do wolves. They'll lower wolf populations that way, and they do. They do in some parts of the world. They do in Alaska, right? Yeah. They do wolf kills from helicopters. Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, lions are just tough. They're so fucking sneaky. I didn't even realize this, but Oregon, as we were looking at those numbers that Jamie pulled up, Oregon, the goal is 970 lions a year, but we never get to it. [41:35] Right. So what that means is we're not meeting our objective of lion kills. That means there's more and more lions every year. Don't they factor that into the amount of tags they give, though, that there's going to be a limited amount of success? So they'll give more tags than there will be like than they actually need to kill for lions or for for lions. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm not sure how they do it. It's supposed to be like a balance. You know, I mean, if.

[41:58] if [41:59] But what happens is not enough lions are getting killed, so there's too many lions, so that means... [42:04] The lions are killing too many deer. No, because the lion number is too high. Right. And that's what's kind of happening. There's areas in Oregon that were great hunting at one time that are terrible now. Well, here's a perfect example. Where I used to live in California, you guys have been in my house, a lot of land, a lot of woods, a lot of like – there's a lot of like wildlife out there. Good luck finding a deer. Oh, yeah. You might find two, three in a month. In a month. I see deer every fucking day out here. I see them every day. You know why? [42:34] No mountain lions, and you could shoot them. California has a mountain lion problem. Like, it's a real problem. [42:41] The place, the Tejon Ranch, that place, they had a camera out in front of one of their ponds, and they got 16 different mountain lions on that camera. 16. Yeah. And what the people in L.A. – [42:55] They have no idea what's going on, but they're voting. That's who controls what's... And voting with their hearts. Yeah, and they're good people, and I would have voted with them, right? Okay? If I had never been hunting, never been in the woods, I would have voted with them. Maybe not, maybe not, because I'm a little fucking skeptical of people's wisdom, and I probably would have looked into it a little bit and thought about what it would be like to get eaten by a mountain lion and go, what the fuck are we talking about? Kill these goddamn things. You're fucking crazy. Don't kill them all. [43:25] they're going to exist in the woods where they're supposed to be they're not supposed to be in pasadena right okay they're not supposed to be wandering around the fucking hollywood hills like that one that i have the big picture of no that one's crazy that line that picture is insane insane the hollywood sign behind him and he's wearing a collar that picture to me embodies like everything that's wrong with california like you know where he is

[43:48] And he's in the neighborhood where people live. And you just put a collar on him so you could track him when he's fucking killing dogs? Like, what are you saying? You know how many – look at that photo. Yeah. That is a sick photo. That is. That's one of the most amazing photos ever. Ever taken. As soon as I saw that photo, I'm like, oh, my God, we have to buy a print. What do you think he's thinking? We ordered it from the photographer. Yeah. [44:09] What is he thinking? What am I going to kill next? And why is this fucking thing on my neck? What breed of dog is the most tastiest? That's right above where Huberman used to live. Oh, dude, it's right there. By the way, we filmed Fear Factor out there a bunch of times. Yeah. Look at that fucker. Oh, I know. Oh, my God. Look at his face. Imagine wandering into that. That thing is so big. How sick of a photo is that? Amazing. Yeah. And it's all camera traps. Yeah. [44:39] hunters, we can be our own worst enemies. But part of what discussions like this and talking about how it actually works is so important. It's not for other hunters. It's for people who don't hunt, who do vote. You know, it's like, hey, let's just educate people who don't understand. It's not your fault you don't understand. You haven't hunted your whole life. That's okay. But just listen to what we're saying and just say like, hey, when that vote comes up and it's like we're talking about, you know, being able to hunt lions with dogs or black bear with bait. [45:09] Thank you. [45:10] hey, there's repercussions if we don't allow this. They just don't know what it is. It sounds cruel. Lions with dogs. Like, oh, that's not even fair. You want to hunt it with a spear. If you want to hunt it like we used to hunt them, hunt it with a spear. Be a man. No, bare hands is what I see. Kill with your bare hands.

[45:29] That's the dumbest argument. That's the dumbest. How do you think we got to the point where we don't have fangs, you fucking dolt? We got there. We evolved past that because we figured out weapons, okay? And that's why we can have cities. And a caveman never kills shit with their hands. At least they had a fucking wooden spear. So what are you talking about, bare hands? It's the dumbest fucking argument of all time. And it's also people that don't understand that we would have never had civilization if we didn't do this. Yeah, exactly. It wouldn't exist. [45:59] from me i've got no desire to hunt a mountain lion again i don't but as someone that's in the know because i have before you know and i wanted to educate myself prior to that hunt i was doing as much reading as i could to find out do i feel good about this is yeah so it's not like i i want i'm still on the list to hunt because i want to go and do it again i don't have a desire to do that again myself but i do see that it's good management you know and instead of them necessary instead of [46:29] utilized you know and it's actually costing money you know there's money going into conservation at that point from the hunter and the meat's utilized you know and as you mentioned in in that case i gave that meat to a lot of people because i wanted people to see it as a food source as well you know as in because you do you sort of think of the mountain lion you're like the meat was amazing some of the most incredible meat i've ever had yeah i mean even even if so just say you're [46:56] They didn't require you to take the meat and you didn't eat it.

[47:00] still they need to be killed. That's all there is to it. Just to make the deer and elk population, just to make it work like it has to work because humans, people will always say, well, Mother Nature will take care of itself. It's like, no, humans have encroached on this habitat. That's why we need to control this. This isn't like the wide open West that it once was where, yeah, maybe it'll work out eventually. It's not going to work out. They were here first. They were here first. We're part of the system, 100%. Adam, you know, he said he's killed one. He doesn't plan on killing another. [47:30] I've never killed one. [47:31] I've never killed a lion in my entire life, but I know it's important. So it's not like I'm this big lion hunter that I just have this passion for doing and I want to kill as many as possible. Never even killed one. But I know that we have to kill them. Yeah. [47:44] In Colorado there, that's one thing, you know, you talk about sexing the animal up in the tree because you can see what it is, male, female. You don't – when I hunted them, I did hunt them. I didn't kill, but you could kill any lion essentially if it didn't have – you know, it couldn't be a female with cubs or kittens. But you look at them in the tree and you can decide, oh, that's a female lion. [48:05] Probably not the best kill. Let's kill an old male because it's just – that's how – it just works better that way, taking old males out. [48:12] And, but you can do that. And same thing with baiting bear. A bear comes in, a bear is really tough to tell whether it's a boar or a sow, it's male or female for those that don't know. But at a bait, when you're looking very closely, you can, oh, that's an old male, that's one I want to take. So that's why, that's why there's, it's not just random like, oh. [48:30] I'm rifle hunting is 400 yards away running and you kill like a bear and it has has cubs. You didn't realize it had cubs because the cubs are in a tree somewhere that the sow left. So that's where baiting is actually the best way to manage these numbers. And it might seem like, oh, you just throw out donuts and this and that and the bear comes in. I mean, yeah, you could term it like that or you could say, no, we're targeting the right animal to make this work the best, best way it can.

[49:00] they apply, especially the rational rules like that, they exist because it's the only effective way to hunt these things. You don't use dogs to hunt elk, you know what I'm saying? It's like, because it doesn't seem right, right? There's one effective way to get these mountain lions and you've got to tree them. If you don't have that option and you're bow hunting, you have to stumble upon one. And they're going to know you're coming forever before you know they're there. Forever. Hundreds of yards away. [49:30] They're going to smell you. They'll hear something. They'll turn and look at it. They have amazing eyesight. You're not finding them. [49:37] And if you want to keep the populations in check, there's like California's got a bear problem too. And part of their bear problem is you can't use dogs anymore. And it was the only way they could really control populations in a lot of these places. Dogs are baiting. Hey, Jamie, I've got another project. So Cam Cannaday, you spell it with a K. As we were talking about, he had a deer tag. He's deer hunting. In Oregon, this is what you do. You just buy a bear and a lion tag just to have with you. [50:07] giant lion. He was deer hunting. This lion came up, sat on this rock 40 yards away, and he's just like, I got a lion tag. Perfect. Boom. [50:15] Got put a perfect arrow in this giant lion. But look at this thing. And he's a big dude. He's a slob. He he played for the Steelers for like six years in the NFL. And yeah, so that was just like a happen chance. That's how you get him in Oregon because you can't use dogs. You can't do anything else. So that lion just just jumped up there and he made a perfect shot on it. That's crazy. But look at that big thing. God. Yeah.

[50:43] pretty nuts. [50:44] And like I said, Cam's like 6'4", I don't know, 230. You ever see the one Derek Wolf killed? Yeah, that was a giant one too. Giant one. So the Derek Wolf story is a great one too because he took so much heat online about it. People were so angry at him that he did that. And it's just people that don't understand why it's necessary. And first of all, if you know Derek, Derek's a fucking legit Viking. He's a legit Viking. That guy's a giant human being. [51:14] like the full [51:15] I think that one was like 180 pounds or something. Look at the size of that fucking thing. [51:22] Yeah, and I don't know what the numbers are, but you think a lion kills, especially a lion that big, has to basically kill a deer every week, right? So that's 365 deer a year. [51:34] that thing is killed or no 52 deer a year imagine there's a deer a day do you know the wolf thing? possibly [51:43] They say lions are killing more deer now than ever in places where there's wolves because the wolves scare the lion off the kill all the time. They steal them all the time. So the lions just give up and they go kill another one. They can kill way easier than the deer can. They're way more effective killers. So think about, say, 50 deer a year for each lion. How many lions are in Colorado? A lot. [52:05] A lot. You know? Yeah, a lot. I mean, that's a lot of fucking deer or elk calves or something's being killed. Yeah. Australia's got a real bad problem with shark population now. And it's like...

[52:16] And I'm taking it there because what's happening is for like a really good eaten fish, like a red emperor, you'll only get like five red emperor. That's your quota for the day. You can only catch five. And what the sharks are doing now is you'll hook a red emperor. [52:34] and the sharks would just take it off the line. So you don't have a red emperor in the boat anymore, but one's dead because the shark's got it. So you keep fishing. So now the red emperor numbers are declining because sharks, that's like their favourite fish to grab off a line. You can catch a cod, you'll get it to the boat because the sharks aren't going for it. But if it's a red fish, the sharks are taking it constantly. And then so what's happened is because there's been a ban on shark fishing, [53:01] Shark numbers have gotten out of control. So now Red Emperor numbers have plummeted because the sharks have just eaten them constantly. How many people in Australia get killed by sharks every year? [53:11] there's been a few this year already yeah I actually just had I had my girlfriend out a couple of oh maybe a month or two ago and I took her to this beautiful beach and it was it was awesome soon as we got there there's dolphins jumping out of the water and whatnot anyway we never went for a swim just because of how the conditions were and a week later a lady was taken from that beach and I was like a little bit of a swim. [53:34] Her partner may have died as well. I didn't follow up on the story, but her partner got attacked as well but got out of the water. [53:42] And it's great why it's mostly on the East Coast. They seem to be running pretty rampant at the moment. I can't kill them. It's the bleeding hearts that are making the votes. Yes.

[53:54] Four confirmed fatal shark attacks in 2025 so far, with some trackers listing four or five deaths depending on how incidents are classified. [54:04] And but think about how much less people are out there in the water. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, it's like you go There's only four shark attacks a year. Yeah, right. But how many people are in the water? Yeah out of 500? Yeah, it's not a lot of people in the water swimming out way to go. Oh, yeah, good Lord. It's an absolute monster of the ocean. Oh Yeah, is isn't it weird to think that uh [54:29] I mean, most society doesn't know anything about the wild these days. You know, I mean... Yeah, we're domesticated. Yeah, so it's... [54:38] But even like, I don't know, I always say that... [54:42] I mean, we talked about this, I'm pretty sure, because I talk about it all the time. But like, I always think that society like this regular life here is fake. It's like it's not even not even real. It's not even how humans were designed to live and survive. Where the wild is actually where... [54:58] That's how... [54:59] That's what we're designed to do, live in the mountains or hunt and survive, things like that. And so the fake life... [55:07] I don't know. It's just crazy to me to think about that. The fake life is what we think of as the real life. Yeah, it's the real life. Yeah. And it's not real. It's like – [55:16] What we're doing... [55:18] Yeah, it's just not real life. Yeah, we're made to live in a society that's not by mine or your design. Right. You know, and it's sort of like, and that's what I always feel out of it.

[55:27] in society because I just feel like it's not for me. But it is... [55:32] It's here, and we've got to live in it. I do like going to Waste of Wells and getting a good injection. But I just want to go when I want to go. That's the way to do it. Attack it from the outside. Go in, go to a nice restaurant, get back out to the country, and just fucking relax. It's better for people. [55:50] Do you ever see that, the old days of Vice, when Vice used to do really cool stuff? They had Vice guide to travel, and there's this one guy who lives in the Arctic Circle. [56:01] And this dude is – he's been there since the 1970s. He got a job up there and got permitted where he's like grandfathered in to allow to live in a small cabin up there, like the last guy there. He has like a permit on his door. And this guy has been living up there forever. [56:17] Ever since he saw 9-11 in a photograph like a year after it happened, had no idea what was going on. Very smart guy, like intelligent, interesting guy and lives up there with his wife. And all he does is hunt caribou and fish. And he talks about it. And he's like, this is how people are supposed to live. Like when you he's not like he's a very intelligent guy. So like when he's talking about he's talking it from like an internal programming like this is like. [56:46] This feeling that you get living like this is how people are supposed to live. And when you live like this, you're very fulfilled and it feels normal. [56:54] Whereas most people don't feel normal. Most people are depressed, depressed.

[56:57] They have anxiety. They're worried about their career. They're worried about all this stuff that is like human created. They're worried about our, our, their social status, whether they're ostracized from the neighborhood or people like them anymore because their political beliefs or whatever the fuck it is. There's none of that out there. There's none of that because it's what, it's the way we were designed. But if we want all the things that we enjoy, like fucking Starlink and cell phones, like you have to have this weird fake world that we've created, the human created world. But it's not. [57:26] conducive to like a healthy mindset for most people. It's not normal. And so all the I have this thought about why exercise is so important for people's mental health. [57:41] Because I think at the very least what it does is... [57:44] it [57:45] gives you like the physical exertion that your body requires. [57:50] But I think your body requires... [57:52] a connection as well. And that's what we're missing. We're missing the natural world connection. [57:58] And you can get some of that out of the physical exercise. You can get some of that out of like doing – but your body is literally designed to have to move and to complete tasks in order to survive. And that task could be like that guy out there hunting caribou, building a house, surviving, like making a homestead, growing a garden. Like this is a normal way we are. But we're moving into this abnormal way. And along the way, people are losing their fucking marbles.

[58:28] No one knows what a woman is anymore. Like everyone literally out of their fucking mind. Yeah, I don't mind with a If the left wind the democracy were fucked a right when we're all gonna be Nazis and it's just chaos Yeah, and none of it is normal none of it is natural and the reason why it's so incompatible with most people is because we're not designed for it I feel it. I know cams the same but like it's just like time doing a [58:52] those things that are usually in a quieter environment [58:56] in a more natural environment. Like, I mentally feel better every time. And then... [59:01] I almost feel myself slipping when I come back to the city, you know, and it's just like you sort of start letting your guard down. You just slip back into it and you're like, this is, I'm not enjoying this. And then you go back out hunting for us or camping or whatever it is. And then I do, I feel revitalized. I feel healthier mentally and physically. I feel healthier. And then, but adding all the other things to it, you know, like you talk about, like, you know, exercise and yeah, it does touch on it. [59:31] get out in fresh air is the big one for me where it's just i do i feel more flow state i wonder if like [59:38] I'm sure Nate, like, [59:40] Primitive man felt emotions for sure. But do you think they felt depressed? [59:46] No. You know what I mean? I feel like they were too busy. Right. Survive. Eat. I think this is part of this fake society is like, are you happy? [59:57] Are you happy? It's like, happy? What the fuck is happy? I want to be...

[1:00:01] useful out there. I want to do something. I'm not happy. I'm [1:00:06] Nothing. What is happy? I'm content just being. Right. Can you be content just being? Yeah. When you're in the mountains carrying your bow – [1:00:17] glassing, looking, drinking, eating, looking for a place to sleep. [1:00:22] What is that? [1:00:23] That's what I want. I don't know what it is, but that's like... [1:00:28] Purpose, I have a purpose. I'm trying to kill something that is that happy. You're trying to find food to me that feels [1:00:37] Because I don't know what happy is. I see people, they laugh and they're fucking around. Sometimes it's alcohol-induced or drug-induced. It's like, is that supposed to be happy? [1:00:48] I don't know. I don't know what are we calling happy. Because that's not like a little kid laughing at a birthday party. [1:00:56] But are they both happy? [1:01:00] The fight no one saw coming. Jake Paul versus Anthony Joshua live on Netflix December 19th. Two worlds collide in the ring and DraftKings Sportsbook has the action covered. Bet on every round, every punch, every knockout moment with live betting and fast payouts. You're always ringside for the action. Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app today. New customers bet just $5 [1:01:30] Instantly get paid $200 in bonus bets with the code ROGAN. That's code ROGAN in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours.

[1:02:00] varies by jurisdiction void in Ontario restrictions apply that must win to receive bonus bets which expire in seven days minimum odds required for additional terms and responsible gaming resources cdkng.co slash audio limited time offer [1:02:12] Well, there's different kinds of happiness, right? Yeah, I don't know. There's happiness you get on a fun date. There's happiness you get when you do fun, stupid shit, like you go play sandbox games. You pretend you're shooting zombies with VR. That's happy. It's fun. [1:02:27] It's silly. You get it out of it. Everyone has a smile. You had a good time. That was wild. That's happy, too. There's a bunch of different kinds of happy. Some of it we've created. [1:02:37] But there's content. Like, are you content? Like, are you enjoying your existence? Yeah. And I think that's a real struggle for a lot of people. Right. Because there's a giant percentage of the people that are listening to this right now that are forced to do something they don't enjoy doing most of the time. [1:02:53] Most of the time, most of their day, they're doing something they don't enjoy doing because they have to do it in order to do the things that they do enjoy. [1:03:00] So if you want to go on vacation, you've got to make enough money to afford the trip to Hawaii. If you want to do this, you've got to do that. If you want to do this, you've got to do that. You're like, ugh. And so you're just working in some stupid cubicle, punching keys, just planning all the fun stuff you're going to do with the money that you make doing this thing you hate doing. It's pretty nuts. Yeah, no, it is. It's pretty nuts. I've never felt happy in that. [1:03:23] That's what I'm saying. But having to do something to get to somewhere, sometimes you have to be unhappy. That's true, too. And you're the wrong person to be commenting on this because you're extreme. You're never going to be happy because you're going to continue to chase bigger and better. Yeah, that's what I say. Which is good. That's awesome. I don't know.

[1:03:41] I mean... [1:03:42] and I've mentioned this before, I'm happiest... [1:03:45] When I'm suffering. Yeah. That's ridiculous. No, but like, doesn't it feel like... Adam and I, we just looked at each other. He's fucking crazy. Because when I'm suffering, it's because I'm doing something that matters to me. Right. [1:03:59] Yeah, you like that. And you know what's on the other side. That's what makes it better, too. Yeah, you've sort of programmed yourself to be like that, too. You know, this is like similar to Goggins, right? [1:04:10] Conkins always wants people to know that he wasn't always like this that he used to be fat and lazy and he shows pictures of himself at 300 pounds He always talks about it. You know, it's like it's like this isn't I wasn't born like this like I turned myself into this and I think one of the reasons why you've been able to struggle so much as you figured out a way to enjoy struggle And a lot of people avoid struggle at all costs. They want the couch. Oh, I want to relax and [1:04:36] It's cold out. I don't want to get in that fucking cold plunge. Are you crazy? What's wrong with you? [1:04:41] I love struggle because you know what's on the other side [1:04:45] Yeah, because you've done it. So it's like once you've done that, and I think that's where a lot of people struggle, if they quit. [1:04:51] or they don't get to the other side, then you don't know the reward on it. What you just said is perfect. That's why they struggle, because they don't struggle. It's like the thing you're avoiding is causing you to have the exact same thing. You're getting a slow dose of that poison, and you never get out of it. Whereas if you voluntarily struggle, then you get this beautiful feeling when it's over.

[1:05:11] But you're not doing that. So you're just getting the same amount of struggle in these weird little slow doses all day long. So you're never getting like, oh, my God, I'm in agony. I can't breathe. [1:05:23] But if you did, [1:05:24] then the rest of the day would be easy. Instead, you're getting, oh my God, the world is closing in on me and I don't know why I'm so freaked out and I'm riddled with anxiety all day long for no fucking reason. I'm having a panic attack and there's nothing wrong. [1:05:37] That's what's going on like you're you're getting your suffering in like little doses all day long and it's driving misery fucking crazy. Yeah, and that's why you get on SSRIs and that's why you do this and that's why you do that and you join a cult. Everyone's just trying to figure out a way to feel better. Everyone's just trying to figure out a way to feel better and. [1:05:57] One of the ways to feel better is voluntary struggling. Yeah. You've got to volunteer to put yourself in stressful situations, difficult situations. Do it on purpose. [1:06:07] If you do that, then the regular world is easier. [1:06:11] Yeah, I think I'm always, of course, biased towards hunting in the mountains, but I also think that men specifically... [1:06:22] Where I grew up and in the environment I grew up, hunters were respected. And if you killed a big buck, you're like... [1:06:29] That meant something in a small town. Because it's very difficult to do. Right. And it's like, for men, respect is such an important thing. Yeah. It's like, well, we say, like, women need love. Men need – if you have to choose –

[1:06:42] men love doesn't mean shit really but respect does yeah and it like hunting was a way to earn respect from the community and that's why for men like when i as hunters i think that's appealing for people who don't hunt because they see that image and they're like [1:06:58] I'm missing that because they see that there's respect earned there. And that's what men – [1:07:05] Whether they want to admit it or not, that's a big driving force. Even at work, whatever job you have, you want to be respected. Here's a perfect example. [1:07:14] That story you were telling me about shooting that bull in the Oregon backcountry, and it's a terrible place to kill a bull, and you call up that dude. Yeah. Yeah. [1:07:25] Cal Halliday. Which sounds like a fake name. We're talking about that. Like a gunslinger. Cal Halliday sounds like such a fake name. It's a perfect badass name. You call this dude and ask him to help you. [1:07:37] Dude drove through. You told him, okay, he said, I'll see you there at 8 a.m. [1:07:42] This guy drives through the night. He shows up. How many hours did it take him to get there? He had to hike in. It was four guys. So he had to round up three other guys. So he brought... [1:07:51] four of them, like him and three guys. And they live... [1:07:55] God, how far away? I mean, at least... [1:07:58] a couple hours, I think. And so they had to get together, drive a couple hours, get up on this old... [1:08:06] like logging road essentially into the access point of the wilderness to the trailhead. Pack in miles, right? So this is like nine or 10 at night. They said they'd be there at eight in the morning.

[1:08:17] So that's what it took. [1:08:18] Like to get there and then miles back to this remote middle of the wilderness hell hole area. [1:08:25] By 8 a.m. So, yeah, it was hours and hours and hours. [1:08:29] just to get there and you can't time that the way you talked about it yeah the way you talked about him that's what every man wants yeah like that was a fucking man yes but he earned it too you know that's and you're talking about you know respect so important but you do have to earn respect right right and that when so in that moment so there was me wayne tanner my son james my camera guy [1:08:59] Thank you. [1:08:59] In that moment... [1:09:01] There's not eight other men I'd rather have or seven other men besides me that I'd rather have there because those – [1:09:08] To do that... [1:09:10] It's special. [1:09:11] Not everybody can do that shit. But those guys... [1:09:16] That was their purpose. [1:09:18] They could probably never be, quote, happier than in that moment. Elk meat on our back, miles to get to the trailhead out. Hundreds of pounds of meat. Yeah, 300 pounds of meat. So we waited at the butcher when I took the – to get processed. 300 pounds of boned out meat. That's not a bone on there. Not including your camp, not including everything that's on your back, your bone. Right, and the head. I took the head out. So 300 pounds of meat plus everything else that we had.

[1:09:48] Thank you. [1:09:48] I can remember probably this season. I mean, it was... [1:09:52] That was... [1:09:55] That was real. That's what I say. That's real. All this other shit. I don't know what this is, but that was fucking real. I killed a bull. We have to get it out to take care of this meat. Here's some badass mountain men who can help me. [1:10:09] Does it get any better? No. I think I've known you for 13 or 14 years now, and you've always been like that. You've never changed in that sense. Those things are important to you. Those things are meaningful to you. It's incredible. No, thank you. Yeah, I mean, that's all that fucking matters. [1:10:27] Most people never experience that. That's what's wrong. [1:10:31] What's wrong is most people never experience that insane, challenging – [1:10:36] experience. [1:10:37] where your character's tested, your will is tested. [1:10:41] Your commitment is tested. Just think. So the video on this hunt came out last night, and it's called The Bowhunter. But there's a moment there. [1:10:50] After we had called, after we'd got my bowl processed, so at that time it was just me, Wayne, Tanner, and James. And we're just sitting there. We had our tent set up. The meat's all hanging up. Middle of the night, sitting there talking, eating. [1:11:06] We're eating peak meals. [1:11:10] Why were you eating peak meals when you had elk meat there? Why didn't you eat the elk? We didn't have a fire. The meat was processed. It wasn't time to eat or like to break down the bowl, but that would have been great. Tenderloins over fire would have been amazing. We just didn't do it. But the point is, in that moment, there's no other place on earth, no other time in my life that I would rather be. That was the pinnacle.

[1:11:37] of life for me. [1:11:38] That's a normal, natural experience for primitive man. Yes. That's what it is. And it's how we stayed alive. And the way I describe it to people, there's a feeling most people have caught a fish. [1:11:52] There's a feeling when someone catches a fish, like even a child. When I took my daughter bass fishing, she was like six, I think. She caught a bunch of bass. And the feeling that she got when she hooked it, like, oh, her eyes light up. It is amazing. [1:12:06] built in us. It's inside of us. But catching a fish... [1:12:11] Bow hunting and in the mountains, killing an animal, cooking it over a fire with your boys. [1:12:17] is that times a thousand. Yeah. It's a crazy built-in, we did what we have to do, and we're looking forward to doing it again. So that intense experience, the difficulty, all of it, you're sitting there, relaxed, you're eating, and you have no doubt you can't wait to do that again. You're not like, man, I don't want to do this again. This is nuts. You're like, yeah, I'm fucking tired, but that was awesome. Yeah. That was awesome. You take the pack off like, woo! Dude. You're sitting there by the fire like, holy shit, you're drenched in sweat, your legs are gone. Yeah. [1:12:47] Everybody's around smiling like we fucking did it. We did it. I just don't know how... [1:12:53] I mean, you hope the films can show that and – but – It gives you a peek. To feel it. Oh, yeah. I would – I wish everybody could feel it. [1:13:04] Just so they'd know. Yeah. Yeah. [1:13:06] It'll never happen, but it's life-changing. Do you remember Israel Adesanya's speech after he knocked out Pereira? Yes. What did he say? He goes, I wish, people of the world, play it. Let's play it because it's fucking amazing. It's unreal. It's fucking amazing. So this is Alex Pereira. This is a guy that had beaten him three times. Three times, yeah. Knocked him out in kickboxing, knocked him out in MMA, and then finally he knocked him out. Yeah. And this is like everybody was terrified of him taking this rematch. Pereira can't be stopped.

[1:13:36] He's a destroyer. He's the scariest guy ever. [1:13:39] But he asked me to give him the microphone. [1:13:46] Look at that. I love the world. [1:13:51] Israel, the world's best. What a human. [1:14:00] Yeah, I love Stylebender. He's the best. Holy shit. He's the best. [1:14:09] Hey, shush, shush, listen up. I want to say something. People, earth, I need to say something. Listen to me. I hope every one of you behind the screens or in this arena can feel this level of happiness just one time in your life. [1:14:39] In your own life, when they knock you down, when they try and **** on you, when they talk **** about you, and they try and put their foot on your neck. If you stay down, you will never ever get that resolve. Fortify your mind and feel this level of happiness as you rise. One time in your life, but I'm blessed to be able to feel this **** again. This episode is brought to you by Tecova's. All right, guys, if you want boots that are made right, you got to check out Tecova's.

[1:15:09] built to last, but really sharp and premium too. You don't need to break them in either. They're comfortable straight out of the box and great boots for those summer concerts, weddings, work events, whatever. And they're versatile too. You can wear them with jeans, dress them up or down, whatever you need. Tecovis has all the classic leathers like cowhide and goat, but they've got all the exotics too for when you want to level up your look. [1:15:37] If you've been thinking about your next pair of boots or, hey, even your first pair, [1:15:42] Go check out Tecovas in-store or online at tecovas.com. That's T-E-C-O-V-A-S dot com. And right now, get 10% off at tecovas.com slash rogan when you sign up for email and texts. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Summer means fun and making memories, but it can also feel like you're in survivor mode with packed schedules, keeping the kids entertained, and chaotic routines. [1:16:12] That's not so fun. You've got to make sure that you're taking care of you, and therapy can help with that. From setting boundaries to making a space to recharge, it can help make your summer more balanced and enjoyable. With BetterHelp, you can connect with a licensed therapist online. You'll be matched based on your needs and can switch any time if it's not the right fit. [1:16:36] With millions of clients worldwide, people are finding the support they need with BetterHelp. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find guidance in therapy. Visit BetterHelp.com to get started. That's BetterHelp.com.

[1:16:53] And again, and again, and again, and again. [1:16:59] That's so good. Greatest post-fight speech of all time. You know what I love, too, is even in that moment, there's a little bit of blood starting to trickle out of his nose. Because he looks really good for just fighting, but there's little, you know, the sweat, the blood trickling. Oh, man. He's getting hit, man. He's getting hit. Fucking legit. And his left leg was already destroyed. He didn't take many of those. [1:17:23] afterwards he's like that motherfucker got me again i was thinking that before that he got my fucking leg again because that was a part of the problem with the first fight yeah [1:17:31] First MMA fight, his left leg was destroyed. He couldn't move his left leg. So even though he's like bobbing, he's like, I was okay. He goes, but I couldn't get out of there. He goes, I couldn't move my fucking leg, man. He goes, I was getting hit, but I was still there. I was moving. Like he was still moving around, but he couldn't go away. Like his leg was destroyed. And that's what people don't think about when you, like, especially those goddamn calf kicks. Yeah. He probably knew after the first one, he was like, fuck, he got me again. Fuck. [1:18:01] And then you're a sitting duck in front of the scariest puncher in the history of the division. Hands of stone there. Oh, my God. He's fucking terrifying. And for him to catch him with that perfect right hand off the cage like that. Oh, my. And then shoot the arrows into him. Greatest post-fight celebration. Greatest post-fight speech of all time. Of all time. There's not even a second place. That really, except Rose and I, my Eunice. That one time when she was saying, I'm the best. Oh, yeah.

[1:18:27] That was pretty powerful. That was pretty powerful, too. That was another good one. [1:18:31] Did you find that tent scene at the end of that video? So, but here's what I was... [1:18:36] curious about is... [1:18:38] Oh, he did find it. Yeah, look, right here. [1:18:42] So the difference between Israel's happiness and this happiness. [1:18:57] And then mentally, you're not coming back to here. [1:18:59] Right. I mean... [1:19:01] You get it all across the creek in that flat. I mean, it doesn't get any more in the bottom. [1:19:07] That was a pack out, but I wouldn't want it any other way. Wayne, he had a horse packer set up. [1:19:13] And then I had also talked to Cal Halliday. And when I was in there by myself on an opening weekend, he said, "Hey, [1:19:19] If you kill a bull in here by yourself, he goes... [1:19:22] Let me know, send me a text or something. I'll have, you know, four or five guys here within five hours to help pack. So, [1:19:29] No, it wasn't opening weekend, but I'm like, I told Wayne that, and I said... [1:19:34] He goes, well, who do you want to get a hold of? Do you want to get a hold of a cow or do you want to get a hold of a horse packer? And I'm like... [1:19:40] I think I'd rather have Cal with some other badass [1:19:44] you know [1:19:45] mountain guys and just share this pack out with them. Yeah, but it's less of a jungle too. [1:19:51] So these guys right here. Bro, that area is sick. You don't want any other people. And Tanner's got so much weight on this. True form. Cal, they got up, I don't know what time, 3 in the morning. Made it all the way there. They said they'd be there at 8 a.m. They were down at my bowl at 8.01. 8.01.

[1:20:07] And I don't know, I mean this is miles and miles and miles, just [1:20:12] you know, just studs. And so, yeah, it's like, I'll never forget that. I'll never forget the whole, obviously the whole hunt, but that morning was a special one. Cal, Eric. [1:20:22] Keith and Ryan. Just drinking stuff. Yeah, so thankful for them. [1:20:28] That bull is massive. So it's like, here's it. But that's a juxtaposition is to me, that was my Israel Adesanya moment about I will never be happier. But look how look how different those moments are. One's in front of a huge crowd, millions of people watching being, you know, getting all that attention from all those people. And then I'm I guarantee just as happy or happier right there. Isn't that crazy? It is crazy. That's your thing. You'll find your thing. Yeah. [1:20:58] that like people just trying to find what's your thing yeah my thing's the outdoors and so israel's thing is fighting so for for him that's the pinnacle [1:21:08] For us... [1:21:09] Whatever your thing is, [1:21:11] Get to the pinnacle, right? That's a lesson. Find happiness in that. [1:21:17] Do you think... Whatever it is. Whatever it is for you. That you're talking about your daughter catching that fish, and it's like this primal... [1:21:24] instinct inside of it that just flares up that fighters have that same feeling like it's a primal feeling oh 100 yeah it's a little more conflicted though depending upon how bad you hurt your opponent [1:21:37] When you hurt him really bad, it's a very conflicting moment because you know that could have been you. Some guys don't get that feeling. Some guys, they're like, good, fuck him. But a lot of guys, it's like, woof. There's some guys that knock a guy out real bad and then they almost want to retire afterwards. They're just like, I don't want to do that to anybody anymore.

[1:21:56] especially guys that have killed guys like Ray Mancini when he killed Duck Ku Kim. I don't think he was ever the same again. There's a few guys like that in history that have had boxing matches where they killed a guy and then they were kind of never the same after that. Yeah, that's some scary shit. Because you realize like this is what you're doing. Yeah, mortality. This could lead to that happening to you. And you think about your kids watching on TV and crying or even worse, their kids. [1:22:21] While you're getting beat up, I always freak out when guys bring their kids. I'm like, oh, man. Bringing a kid to a fight, you know? Yeah. I've seen guys get knocked out in front of their kids, and it's particularly devastating. Particularly devastating. [1:22:33] Especially when you really like the guy. It's rough. [1:22:36] It's a rough way to make a living. But those guys, when they get that belt strapped around them, when their hands get raised and the whole audience screams and cheers, it's like, whew. That's a special moment. That's a special moment that very few people ever get to experience. Unless they kill a bull in the wilderness. I don't even know if it's the same. [1:22:54] It's a different kind of happiness. I think yours is more sustained. Yours lasts longer. That's what I say. It's like, I don't know. Israel said he was happy. I guess that's what it is. [1:23:06] is after the happiness dies off for a couple of days then you start thinking about your next fight and you immediately start getting that anxiety I think that's a good drive in life though right because you don't just do that elk hunt and be like I'm done now right you know it's like not what's the next one yeah and it's like that constant pursuit and it's also like constantly recognizing that you're always going to be

[1:23:28] at least trying to get better. You're always trying to get better. Anything that is going to give you real happiness is going to be very difficult because you're not really going to ever be able to master it, whatever it is. [1:23:41] It's like that's where it is. It's in the pursuit of it. [1:23:46] And along the way, recognizing that you consistently keep getting better, but it's like there's a dream that you're chasing that you're never going to get to. You're never going to get to bow hunting perfection. It doesn't exist. Right. You can get really close. You've gotten really, really close. But we're human, and it's the wild, and there's all sorts of weird variables that happen. There's branches and sticks and wind and this and that, and it's impossible to be perfect. Yeah. And that's part of the magic of it. Yeah. [1:24:16] When you're in the moment and it's all happening, it's all so open-ended. Any result can take place. You really do not know how this is all going to go down. You haven't seen it all play out. You might imagine how it's going to play out, but it's going to play out in unique situations. Some of them will be similar. Some of them will be completely different. Yeah. And you've got to figure it out. You were telling me that crazy story that I was talking to you about the podcast where you're shooting down at this bull from a cliff straight down. Yeah. [1:24:46] It was a – so I arranged the bull. It was a huge cliff. And what I thought is I'd get up there and I'd be able to see the flat. And there were some bulls down there. It was a tough year in Arizona, the drought. [1:24:58] from that cliff, I thought that'd be a great vantage point to see where these bulls were in plan of stock. So

[1:25:03] Get way up there. Actually, there's sheep right above us, too. It's like crazy, rugged country. But get up there on that cliff, and I'm kind of looking out over the expanse there, and then I look straight down below me. There's this big bull, straight down. [1:25:22] So their back's protected. The wind's coming up. They can monitor down below them with their nose. They know nothing's coming from the back. That's how mule deer bed to survive. Well, this bull had done that same thing. And it had just stood up from the base of the cliff. And I looked down. I range it 42 yards, which... [1:25:42] people who know [1:25:43] If the range finder is telling you to shoot for 42, that means straight down. That means it's probably close to 60 yards, you know, because the range finder does a calculation. If you shoot flat. [1:25:57] That's the gravity affects one thing. If you shoot straight down, gravity has less effect. So it's saying, even though it's further, you would shoot for less distance is how that works. So it told me to shoot for 42. That means it's probably 60 straight down. And, uh, that's a long shot with it, with, with, [1:26:14] bow and then I had to shoot it straight down I had to I thought that I was like gonna go straight through his spine because I was straight above him I'm like well, I'm gonna come right behind the shoulders Straight through his spine into his vitals. I thought that should do it. So I [1:26:30] Shoot, I hit that bull like about, I would say, an inch off the spine. I show it. There's a video of it on that, the video we just watched for people who are interested. But about an inch off that spine into his chest, and the bull went about 100 yards. But, yeah, it was –

[1:26:45] I've never done a shot like that before in my life. You think about different scenarios. I'd never even thought about one like that on a bull elk at that distance, at that angle. So that is even, so where? Yeah, it's back. That's the Winnahaw bull, but it's back, Jamie, about, I was talking about getting ready for this hunt, and it shows like a few clips of a bull. [1:27:06] The bull I killed in Colorado, then the Arizona bull, then I did another hunt in Utah, and I killed a bull there to get prepared for the Oregon hunt. But yeah, it was just, I never even really thought that that shot would be a potential one. The Oregon hunt is crazy because of the wilderness is so dense. Yes. Oregon is nuts. It's a forest hunt. It's like a rainforest. It's like Jurassic Park. And that's in eastern Oregon. That's the dry part of the state. That's crazy. [1:27:36] a hole there, so much moisture down there that it turned into like Jurassic Park. With that bull coming in bugling, it was like a dinosaur kind of. It looks sick. But there's nothing that matches that. [1:27:48] That aspect of elk hunting makes it so much cooler. Yeah. It's the sound they make when they're coming in. Oh, it's nuts. It's just like all of your fucking pores pop up. Yeah. It's like you get goosebumps all over your body. You back your neck. The hair stands up. It's like the scream is like, whoa. Right. It's so – it is my favorite sound. It's amazing. Oh, they're incredible. When you hear – when you're close – [1:28:12] And there's an elk screaming through the woods and he's coming close towards you. The thrill of that is like nothing else. Like nothing else. No. And people who haven't heard it, they hear that and they're like, what the fuck is that? Right. It's like demons. It's weird that there's an animal on this planet that makes that noise. If we hadn't done this our whole lives and we heard that, it would be like –

[1:28:36] what is going on yeah if you had done what adam did in japan and not research like what what kind of animals are in the area and you were camping out and you heard that scream you'd be like oh my god we're surrounded by demons no i've had people tell me stories like there's something really weird in the woods there yeah and then but you find out it's like fellow deer or red deer are living in there and it's like just their breeding period and they're just roaring and just people like what the fuck is that oh it's like actually it's just a deer stag have the [1:29:06] It's such a weird noise. [1:29:09] make a real pussy sound. [1:29:10] compared to a, yeah, for their size. Yeah. Well, like an African lion, cause I heard those when I was hunting over there, like they're by the river. And so we're like an African lion in the middle of the night, [1:29:22] They're like, oh, my God. It just reverberates through the whatever we were, jumbles. If there's anything that lights up your DNA, the sound of a lion must just chill your fucking cells. Nothing like that either. Nothing like that either. But here's an exciting thing. So for people listening that maybe didn't grow up hunting, we were talking about this in the green room last night when we're getting high off all the smoke. [1:29:52] smoking but we got high. [1:29:56] What's crazy is nowadays, we're 58. You're 45, right? But we're just getting... [1:30:03] Even better physically. So you say you can't master bow hunting, right? Because you only had a certain window. Like normally how hunting works is you're young and strong, all the endurance in the world, but you don't know shit, right? You don't have the experience. So by the time you get the experience and you're old and broke down, you can't take advantage of the experience. So you have to have a wisdom. The wisdom you gained when you're young, you utilize when you're old to kill. Well, now we can gain all that experience and wisdom.

[1:30:33] some years, and I'm also at the best I've ever been physically. You married those two up? [1:30:40] Look out. That's what's nuts is that didn't exist before. Right. So, like, we go to ways to well today and get stem cell and get, you know, the IV treatments and get everything else to be able to operate at our absolute prime at 58 years old with 40 years of experience. Yeah. [1:30:57] That's it. That's tough. That's you're going to have success if you do it right. So [1:31:02] Yeah, not everybody's going to be in that situation where they grew up hunting like me. But you even think about Jelly Roll at 41 years old. So... [1:31:09] He just started bow hunting. You started bow hunting in your 40s, and now you've been doing it for 15 years, and you're getting better. So there's hope for even people 40, 50, whatever. [1:31:21] With this new science and treatment and supplements and things like that, you can still be very active and still take on new intense endeavors like bow hunting or just hunting in general and have success. And it might change your entire life. Like Jelly Roll is a different fucking person. Yeah. In two years, he's a different person, a different human. [1:31:41] That should be exciting for people listening. Yeah. They should learn that you could do it too. And having more energy, like say if you're not into bow hunting, you say if you're not, like I don't want to be a marathon runner, whatever it is. If your body is healthier – [1:31:58] Whatever the thing you do you can be you'll have more energy you'll be better you're gonna be better at it you're gonna have like what why do people like? Cognitively decline when they get older well big part of is you're declining overall Everything's declining everything about you is declining of course your brain is declining as well Like your your entire existence is fading your your but the more you can have energy

[1:32:24] the more you have vitality, the more you can do what, I don't care if you play chess, whatever the fuck it is that you like to do, paint, whatever it is you like to do, the more energy you have, the more energy you'll be able to apply to that thing you do. The more enjoyable it is, the better quality of life, the happier you are. Including all the other stuff, just being with your family, you'll have more energy to do stuff. You'll have more life. You'll have more life energy. [1:32:51] here's a [1:32:52] one... [1:32:54] mindset I've tried to take on with, especially with hunting, because that's all I really fucking care about, is improving and learning on every time. And I could even think about, like, I was telling somebody, I don't know who, but [1:33:07] I try to learn something on every stock. And when I think about when you killed a sable the other day, [1:33:13] So we're there, and you have to weigh out so many things on a stock when you're getting ready to kill an animal or potentially kill an animal. But we're thinking about, okay, we have the wind. The wind is – that's the biggest thing with bow hunting. [1:33:28] I knew where the wind was. But then also it's like, well, do we go stay in the shade so the sun wouldn't blind you as it was going down? But if we stay in the shade, we're not perfectly downwind. So I'm like... [1:33:41] Well, the sun's going to set. The winds change because thermals change. If we're to the side... [1:33:47] in the shade so you don't have to deal with the sun. [1:33:50] Then when that wind becomes unstable... [1:33:53] it's more likely to smell us. So we should be all the way downwind, but that means we're going to have to shoot.

[1:33:58] Before the sun gets too low to where it's not blinding you to get to the side, then you have to figure out what's the path to get there to where we're not making noise for the animal to hear. Well, it's straight to the, I don't remember that tree. And I said, head straight to that tree. And from that tree, then I was thinking you should have a lane because there was brush all around. But it looked to me like from that tree, you would have a lane to shoot. [1:34:22] at 28 yards, but you're still factoring all these, the wind, the sun, everything else, what's the animal going to do? It's just so fascinating to think about, but I know some people hunt and, [1:34:33] And I don't think they think about it in those details. You know what I mean? They're just kind of like, oh, there's an animal. What do I do? But like... [1:34:40] That's [1:34:41] That's not how you master the moment. You master the moment by, and I said this a lot of times too on many of these hunts. I was telling Jelly Roll this. I was like... [1:34:52] Everything matters. Everything. [1:34:55] The little thing matters. The big things obviously matter. But everything matters. And that's what hunting teaches us. And in life... [1:35:06] You can make it through regular life on this fake world that I keep talking about. [1:35:10] By ignoring a lot of things. [1:35:13] Not on a hunt. Yeah, we had to think about a lot of things on that stalk. On a hunt, everything matters. And one of the big ones that we had to think about was as that sun was dropping. So we were standing there waiting for this sable to get up. It had bedded. And it didn't know we were there. And we creeped into the spot. We were slowly. Do you remember that? So do you remember that tactic? Yeah. Remember what I said? Yeah. If you move slow enough, they won't pick it up. Right, because they look for movement.

[1:35:43] 30 seconds. We were barely moving. Because what I've found is animals [1:35:48] I've been in the wide open on a caribou. [1:35:50] Went right at it, but so slow. It was just like, that can't be anything. Nothing does that. No sideways movement. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. Okay, when it comes to sleep... [1:36:01] I've got to have the right temperature dialed in, depending on the time of year that might be ripping hot. I'm talking volcanic or igloo levels of iciness. The point is, I need the temperature to be just right so I can get deep sleep, the kind of sleep that drives real recovery. And luckily, 8 Sleep is all about giving you the best sleep possible. [1:36:31] regulating the temperature on each side of the bed in real time. Why? So you and your partner can consistently hit your ideal deep restorative sleep range and wake up feeling truly refreshed and recovered. Use my code Rogan at 8sleep.com slash Rogan for up to $350 off the Pod 5 Ultra. The best part is that you get 30 days to try it at home and return it if you don't like it. [1:37:01] love your investment in better sleep. That's code Rogan at 8sleep.com slash Rogan. This episode is brought to you by Chime. Chime is bringing something fresh to banking. J.D. Power just ranked them the number one choice for new bank accounts in America. And that's not a small thing. That means real people, millions of them are choosing this over traditional banks. That's

[1:37:31] and thousands of free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category that you actually pick yourself. [1:37:43] Your savings rate, nine times the national average. That's crazy high. Go to chime.com slash Rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for more details. [1:38:09] And just... [1:38:10] But steady and slow, and they just won't spook. Mm-hmm. [1:38:14] Yeah. Yeah. [1:38:15] And we had to figure out [1:38:17] where to stand. And then when we got where we were, as we're standing there, we're standing there for quite a while. [1:38:22] I realized, oh, this sun is going to be impossible because it's slowly lowering in the sky. And it's literally above this sable's head now. And I'm like, OK, we don't get this thing to stand up. I'm not going to be able to see it because I had my hat on. Right. So I blocked myself from the hat. And then I was trying to train my eyes to just look at it through, you know, just like the haze of the sun. I was like, this is going to be a real problem. [1:38:45] So we decided, let's get him to stand up. So Cam took his arrow out of his quiver and started tapping on this branch and then started, like, moving towards it. And Sable are beasts, bro. Yeah. First of all, those motherfuckers, they kill lions occasionally. Yeah. Like, they get attacked, and they're fierce. Like, they're not – so it wasn't exactly easy to spook. Right. So you had to kind of, like, move towards a little bit. And then it started grunting at you, like, fuck off. Fuck off, bitch. Fuck off, bitch. And then finally it stood up.

[1:39:15] But it was... [1:39:17] It was a shot where I was like, I got to do this real soon because otherwise I'm not going to be able to see. Fortunately, I could and I can get the pin right where it needed to be. But it was like I was telling you afterwards, I was like, I avoid shooting into the sun. When I have my targets, I always put a target in the other way. And I'm like, I can't do that anymore. Now I have to start shooting into the sun sometimes. You got to get that feeling because that had happened also on a hunt with Tom Land. We were up in Utah. [1:39:46] And this bull was a nice bull. It was about 60 yards, and it was coming across this ridge. The sun was right in my eyes. And he's like, why didn't you shoot? I was like, I just couldn't. It was too blurry. The sun was right fucking there. And I remember thinking that at that time. This was years ago. Thinking at that time, I need to shoot into the sun. And I never did. I never did. I just won't come up. I just won't take the shot. I'll do what I did then. I won't take the shot. And if you're not comfortable, you don't have to take the shot. In this situation, I was like, oh. [1:40:16] it's not a long shot. It's only 28 yards, and [1:40:20] It's a big animal. [1:40:23] I'm pretty confident I got this. I was like, I had to factor all these things in and then not let doubt creep into my head. Yeah, stay. [1:40:30] Totally calm. So there's all these things going on simultaneously. It's a lot. It's a lot to manage a lot, but it but also a lot to [1:40:38] a lot of factors to consider and then learn from yeah oh i learned a lot from that hunt i learned a lot first of all i learned how fucking tough sable are that is the same experience like i told you i had with neil guy that i shot that neil guy in south texas and it ran like i didn't even hit it i hit it perfect the arrow went right through him it was the arrow we found the arrow 30 yards past where i hit it was covered in blood so we knew he was dead but he ran like he never even got hit he

[1:41:09] And the guide I was with was like, yeah, man, they grew up around tigers. These things evolved around tigers. They don't just take getting hit and go, oh, no, I'm in trouble. They fucking run. They're so tough, and they barely bleed. That's the other thing about these animals that grow up around big predators. Boy, they clog up their holes really quick. They don't leave much of a blood trail. It's not like an elk or a deer. It's different. [1:41:33] Yeah, I think Adam Attucks [1:41:36] explains this well sometimes you talk about when you hit them if they're stretched out then when they're not stretched out you know it's like it just changes that that [1:41:46] the entrance wound and the exit wound if there is one it just changes there's different layers of muscle and hide over it where it just blocks up that blood it see it seems like they clog up quicker too just period like whatever their anatomy is the difference is when you hit them they don't they just don't bleed much yeah i got a buddy that always you know someone's like it was the perfect shot and it's like well actually it wasn't because it'd be dead already so it's like and i know what you're saying but the truth is double lungs is double lungs and there's so many [1:42:16] that reaction they close up the gap or what broader do you use and if the animal's breathing out when the arrow shoots through the lungs or whether it's just taking a bunch of oxygen in you know there's a larger target yeah and there's all those different plus just [1:42:31] more energy to run on right and then you know you'll see certain hunters that shoot something it's not even dead yet and they're like yeah and start yahoo and it's like what shut the fuck up because that brings on an adrenaline rush animals can run further whereas you just want a nice relaxed setup you know it's just a hit they don't know what's going on the beauty of the bow because it's so quiet there's not a loud gunshot behind it or anything and then you know just so they're

[1:42:58] They want to give up earlier because they've got nothing to spook from or fight from. And they don't know what happened. Yeah. Sometimes they think they got jabbed by another bull or something. Like, what happened? Yeah. Because everything's crazy. They're all rutting and screaming at each other and clashing antlers and all of a sudden, whack! Like, what the fuck is that? Right. Utah this year, the bull that I shot, he'd just been in the fight with another bull. [1:43:21] So he was all revved up from that other bull. So I literally hit him, and he thought he got poked by an antler from another bull. And he went 20 yards, was standing for... [1:43:29] 14 seconds, drop dead, nice, beautiful, peaceful right in front of me. They don't all happen like that, but that's what we're after. That's what you're after. That's why you practice. That's why you shoot so many arrows. [1:43:39] To have it drop right in front of you is the greatest thing ever. And I think that does impact the taste of the meat, too, if you don't have them shoot that adrenaline back through their body where it's a peaceful death. I think it does impact the taste. That's what they say. Yeah. Yeah. [1:43:54] Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, don't they do that with – when they want to call animals, like – or if they want to shoot animals, rather not call them – shoot them for commercial purposes? They shoot them in the head, right? Yeah. They put a bolt in their head, but yeah, I mean – No, I mean like in Lanai, when they shoot like axis deer from me, they shoot them in the head. Definitely. No, but like even like when they kill cattle – [1:44:17] They're not getting those things. Right. Of course. Of course. You want them to be as calm as possible. Yeah. The opposite of what that mountain lion did to that cow. [1:44:26] Imagine eating that. Yeah. Imagine you ate that cow. That cow would be like, yeah, I got anxiety. It's probably in the meat itself. I got issues. Taking it back to the health journey, how you were saying, like, you know, where we are now with, you know, modern treatments and wellness is incredible. Like, I feel like my body is the best it's ever been.

[1:44:47] And I'm obviously the oldest I've ever been, which is crazy to think of. Like, how can I feel better than I do... [1:44:55] how can I feel better now than I did in my early 20s? You know, we've probably had any injuries and stuff like that. And I've got you to thank for that by introducing me to... [1:45:04] Brigham and Waisley Wells. Oh, my pleasure. I want more people to know about it. I want everybody to be healthy. It's possible. You can get healthier. Like, look at Jelly Roll. The guy was 500 plus pounds, and now he's running. That's such an incredible story. He ran 10K the day before he came to the studio, and then when we went to the gym together, and he ran 2.6 miles on the treadmill while he was talking. We're laughing. He's joking around, they don't know me, son. He's having a good [1:45:34] happy we got in the sauna together we're laughing it's like he's just a different guy [1:45:38] He's got so much and he's so excited about this journey that he's on, this journey of self-improvement, this journey of health. You know, he's going to be there for his kids. He's going to be there for his wife now. He's worried about dying before. [1:45:52] You know, he told a story about [1:45:54] Falling like laying on his arm and he couldn't get up. [1:45:56] He was trapped and he didn't have – In bed. In bed. He couldn't get up. He couldn't – and he thought he was going to die. He's like, I'm so big that I'm laid on my arm and I don't have the strength to get out of this position because I'm so big. What a change. And now he's running and bow hunting. Yeah. He's substance now. Like that substance will just keep him going, you know, to find those things and what makes him happy. It's incredible.

[1:46:26] This is another thing that we talked about. You just get on the path. Don't worry about how people are ahead of you. Just you be ahead of yourself. Next week, you're ahead of where you were this week. The week after that, you'll be ahead of you. It's just a path. So what if other people have been on the path further than you? Like that's how you get better at stuff. And that is what's exciting about life is this path of improvement. And whatever you do and actually being a human being, be a better human. You can do that. [1:46:56] can get on that path. Yeah. Yeah, it's just, that's what I told Jelly, is that, you know, [1:47:02] you can wander around off the path for your whole life and never really have, like, fucking never really figured it out. But once you make it, like, where he's on, you know, being healthy, eating better, exercising, you know, the mountains have given him – [1:47:19] I always say the mountains heal or nature heals. Um, [1:47:22] So he's there now. It's like, yeah, of course there's people who are way ahead because they've been on it longer. There's people who are not quite on it. Maybe they're going to be faster than him and they pass him. But... [1:47:31] all on the right path, heading in the right direction, that's a beautiful place to be, and that's where he's at. It is, and one of the things that I said to Jelly when we were on the podcast, I was like, what you're doing is inspiring millions of people to live a better life, 100%. What you're doing is so beneficial to human beings all over the world, because now millions of people have seen that podcast, millions of people have heard that story, millions of people have seen those clips that have been shared all throughout social media,

[1:48:01] got excited by that and it gave them fuel and energy to want to go do something it gave them that inspiration that we all desperately crave to want to go out and take those first fucking steps and then once you do that [1:48:15] Then you're operating on momentum and it's so much easier. This is another thing that people have to understand. The first steps are the hardest. It's so hard to move. It's so hard to get going. But once you get going, then you operate on momentum. Once you have a good day, then you go, I did it. I had a good day. Let's do it again tomorrow. And then you get excited about it. You look forward to waking up. And then you get through it that day like we fucking did it again. And now I'm looking forward to it. [1:48:45] year now i cut off the sugar now i'm drinking water with electrolytes and now i'm feeling better i have more energy and just keep going yeah just keep going and momentum is so much easier than that first step the first step of changing your life is so hard because we're just so afraid of pain we're so afraid of suffering we're so afraid of like just the discomfort we've been programmed to think that discomfort is a bad thing it's not yeah it's not it's necessary i think that [1:49:15] you [1:49:15] Jilly Roll might – I mean I think we've talked about this, but could he impact more people than anyone ever has in that regard? 100%. We were talking about that today. 100%. Because it's like – it's not like – [1:49:29] Even Israel or your favorite NFL guy or NBA, they're elite. So when they succeed, you're like, fuck, of course. He's 6'8", 260. Of course he's going to be great. But...

[1:49:41] When you see somebody like Jelly Roll who came from 540 pounds... [1:49:47] That's like he's already at the furthest end of like, you know. [1:49:51] what you'd have to overcome. And for him to do that, anybody else is closer to the goal than he was at that time. So it's like, nobody's in worse shape, really. Right. He's literally morbidly obese. You can't be in worse shape. Right. And if he's doing it, [1:50:11] Everyone can do it. Everyone who has who has that some something inside him. And maybe he's going to give them that something. [redacted address] more famous than anybody who's ever done this before. Right. That's the most important aspect of it. He's loved by so many people. So how many Jelly Roll fans loved him because he was like them? [1:50:31] He was big like them. Super talented, amazing guy who was also big. Like, oh my God, I thought I was a big slob and no one's going to love me. Meanwhile, everybody loves Jelly Roll. So they love Jelly Roll. And then all of a sudden, Jelly Roll has changed his life. How many people are sitting there watching him and listening to him going, [1:50:49] I think I could do it. He did it. I think I can do it. Yeah. And you just do it the way he did. You know, like he didn't start out running marathons. He tried to go for a walk. Yeah. You know, I mean. He would call his walk his run because he couldn't run. Right. But he'd say, tell his family, his wife, that he's going to go out on his run. There's not one step of running. [1:51:07] But the... [1:51:09] The mindset. [1:51:11] story he told himself was he was running. So it's that self-talk, you know, how we talk to ourselves is important. So he would tell himself, I'm going to go run, even though there's no, not a step of running involved, but that led to running.

[1:51:24] That mindset, that approach of like, I'm winning today. I'm winning. It's not a run. It's a walk, but it's going to be a run. That's going to be a massive mental achievement for him too because I'm sure that he had a lot of mind weight to lose as well because – [1:51:40] He was in jail, right? Substance abuse, no doubt. Probably a lot of... [1:51:46] That's a lot of negative stuff in someone's head. So to lose that as well, and you told me that he's such a positive person. [1:51:54] He lost a bunch of weight, which is incredible, but... [1:51:57] what he's done to his mind, which we may never know, is really incredible too. [1:52:04] That's why I was saying to you this morning, this might be one of the best modern day stories of a person changing their life when you look at Jelly. Yeah. Yeah. And couldn't be a better representative of... [1:52:17] of someone who has gone through the struggle and then come out this amazing person like he's an amazing guy like there's very few humans that are so kind and friendly and warm and when he hugs you he hugs you with his soul like he hugs you with his whole body and his soul he's like a perfect person to be the inspiration for people to improve their life well and that was so touching like when [1:52:47] Grand Ole Opry inclusion for Jelly Roll from Craig Morgan. [1:52:53] Joe, can I get a hug? I mean, two men. And to me, that was like so endearing, but also so...

[1:53:02] important to show that it's okay for men to say, yeah. [1:53:07] Can I get a hug? [1:53:08] I mean, it was a man crying. It was one of the most inspirational things you could ever watch. [1:53:13] I mean, but it takes a certain type... [1:53:16] Or it's one of one who does stuff like that, like him, his heart. That's what I say. He's a big man, but he's got the biggest heart of anybody I've ever met. And that was an example of it. Like he just wanted... [1:53:29] Love. Yeah. He's a... [1:53:32] he's a very important figure in our culture. He really is. He really is. You know, especially now. He always was. His music just alone. [1:53:41] is important because it's beautiful music but the beautiful music is the expression of a beautiful soul you know and now he's also on this path of self-improvement and it's amazing yeah that title of his album beautifully broken i mean it's so perfect yeah it is and he's he's he was broken probably will always be broken in some ways we all are but he's putting himself back together and man he's are we all broken or do we all have negative thoughts from the past are we telling [1:54:11] Yeah. [1:54:16] You know, it's not that we're broken. Maybe it's the doubt, the self-doubt. Well, everyone's going to – it's like you're a human being. The only way you figure out how to get good at something is you have to – it has to be a puzzle. Puzzles include doubt. Yeah. It's always going to be there.

[1:54:32] Hmm. [1:54:33] There's no getting around it. [1:54:35] no it's not it's but it's part it ends up being the beauty of it right yes that's it that's the beauty of it and and then whatever you do doesn't you don't have to bow on it's like you probably should but you don't have to yeah it could be anything else but yeah just any struggle in life you know that's how i look at anything like that that's testing or trialing or and it should be it should be interesting for you too it should be an interesting thing that's the people also [1:55:05] mind. [1:55:05] in terms of only being valuable in human created endeavors. Like the mind only being valuable in mathematics, the mind only being valuable in your ability to recite literature, and your knowledge that you've gained through schooling. Like no, no, the mind manages stressful situations too. That's an important aspect of intelligence, is your intelligence in being able to navigate difficult things. [1:55:35] That is all your mind. You're using your mind. Like bow hunting has so much... [1:55:43] So many elements of intelligence that are woven into it. And the difference between a successful person who bow hunts and an unsuccessful person is unbelievable. [1:55:55] experience and practice, but also [1:55:58] The mind being able to learn from each individual situation and experience and get better and accumulate all this knowledge over time. You know, it's got a deep, deep learning curve. It's very deep. And –

[1:56:11] The people that don't experience it and that have this classification in their head of what intelligence is. Intelligence means you got a PhD. I know a lot of people with PhD that are fools. They're fools. They're emotional children. They're filled with ego and resentment and they're shitty and nasty to people. They're fools. So they're not smart. They're just... [1:56:33] They have a functional mind that they've applied to human endeavors only. Right. And they've never done the big thing, never done the whole package, never put it all together. Right. [1:56:45] Yeah, and I think another key to being... [1:56:49] intelligent [1:56:51] I don't know if it's the key, but having kids, I think, is a big part of growth. And to me, it's like I lump intelligence, just life experience into growth. [1:57:03] the [1:57:04] the package we'd call intelligence, but like, [1:57:06] Hunting teaches us that, of course, but also raising kids and being responsible for a family. Oh, yeah. I think that's another... It's like, yeah, school doesn't teach you that shit, and the degree you got doesn't signify that, but... [1:57:22] I don't know. I think that's a big part of it, too. It's a giant learning experience. That's for damn sure. And it also teaches you way more compassion. [1:57:31] It just teaches you to be way more loving and kind. And you also just – you understand from watching a baby become an amazing adult human being, you get to understand all the elements that are involved in this child's development and all the trials and tribulations. Oh, you've got to let them fall sometimes. Yeah. And then help them pick themselves back up and talk to them through it. And when they're down, explain like, I've been down too. I'm always down. I've fucked up everything.

[1:58:01] Whenever my kids would do anything wrong, one of the things I'd always say to them if I was upset at them, I'd say, listen, I did everything that you did. I've done all this stuff. It's okay. But you can't do it, and this is why. I've screwed up everything. I've done things I shouldn't have done. I'm doing exactly what you're doing right now. I've done it even worse. You're a better kid than I was. Yeah. I always say that. So they don't think that I'm without fault. I always say, I've done it all, but I got through it on the other side. Now I'm your dad. And the reason why I'm telling you this is because I love you. [1:58:29] And I'm not trying to, like, be upset at you because I'm mean. Like, I'm trying to help you live a better life. And that's how I try to communicate with them about it. So in my head, that perspective opens up other lanes, right? [1:58:45] of intelligence. That's what I'm saying. It's like you can't be your highest form without that. Right. You're challenged. You're challenged. And you're also challenged by the discipline of it. You know, you have people that rely on you. And that is you can't fuck that off. You can't just like not show up for work. You can't just, you know, I just feel like sleeping in today and fucking I'm taking a month off. Like you can't do that. You have people that rely on you. And also

[1:59:15] THE FAMILY. [1:59:16] The people that – and your kids are a great example of that. The children of people that are very disciplined almost always have a higher threshold of discipline. I notice it. I see it in your kids for sure. I see it in my kids. [1:59:29] they have more of an understanding of what's necessary in order to get things done and to be successful. Now, if you're... [1:59:38] a person who's a parent and you shirk every responsibility you lie you you steal you you do things you're not you take shortcuts you you're not truthful you're whatever you're doing where your kids get to see like oh my parent is a kind of a fuckhead you know my parent is kind of one of two things happens either you emulate your parents and you be kind of a fuckhead or you go i don't like that and i'm never going to be like that like some of my friends that grew up with [2:00:08] never had a drink in their fucking life and they never will. They're like, I am never touching that shit. I see what that's like because I saw my dad lose his fucking job, lose his house, lose this, lose that, get arrested for DWI, get in a bar fight. My dad's a fucking loser and I'm not going to be that guy. But it's a toss up. Or some might. [2:00:28] emulate that. Some might emulate it. Yeah. I mean, some, you see your dad's a drug addict, like, let me try it. [2:00:33] I grew up like that with a couple of closer friends and [2:00:37] these closer friends were like i'm never going to be like my dad like we'll we'll to the core we'll like that we're never going to be like our fathers and and that's one of the reasons i don't drink because my father was a horrible alcoholic and even though when i drink i'm happy i i'm just turned off it so i don't want to do it and i guess i've gone long enough now that doesn't interest me and then i had another friend that i cut off because he turned out to be exactly like his dad

[2:01:07] I'm never going to be like my father. I'm going to be the opposite. For some reason, some people just... [2:01:11] go down the same path i think it's also the stress of life it's sometimes it's overwhelming you know this this thing that we look forward to in bow hunting this like not knowing what's going to happen like you you get out there it's early in the morning you put your pack on you know what's going to happen today who knows some people hate that feeling right they hate that feeling of not knowing what's going to happen and the uncertainty about your career and job is a weird uncertainty this is it depends on so many factors that are sometimes out of your control [2:01:41] They just want to escape. And maybe they're doing a job they don't enjoy doing. And then the only time they feel good is when they're drunk. So they just get get off work and they can't wait to meet their boys and have a laugh. And next thing you know, you're drinking and one day turns into a month. And that's just that's distraction. They want to be distracted off their life or whatever. In this world will give you a lot of distractions. You can play video games and get hammered. [2:02:06] Do heroin. Pornhub. Yeah, whatever it is. Fill in the blank, man. You could find a lot of stuff that's not going to be beneficial for you. Yeah, it's a... [2:02:14] One thing that... [2:02:16] I think the... [2:02:17] Well, drinking and whatever. But I think the biggest... [2:02:22] negative thing a parent can offer their kids is [2:02:27] blaming other like all it's always somebody else's fault right so it's like this discuss discussion at the house you know because kids hear everything right so when the dad's coming home and he's bitching about his boss or the guy at work or he's getting fucked over for this or i could do that too but that guy kissed ass that's why he got that or the must be nice whatever like these excuse makers

[2:02:50] You're just fucking sabotaging your kids. It's just that you never get anywhere by blaming other people for where you're at. And so many people do that because they won't accept personal responsibility for their actions or for their place in life. I don't even think it's necessarily their fault. I think a lot of them have never seen an example of an extraordinary person who doesn't do that. It's rare. [2:03:16] To find a person, unfortunately, in this world, especially in society, it's rare to find a person of great character, a person who's just got impeccable character and is always truthful and is work works really hard and is loved by a lot of people. It's rare. It's rare. And so they've never experienced it. They've never been around it. Yeah. So they don't even know what it is. Right. They don't know that they're sabotaging. [2:03:46] Because he does talk about all of the negative shit that he's experienced and all the negative influences and all the bad people that he was around and how he was living that life. He was trapped in that way. Yeah. And now he's not anymore. And he's so – [2:04:02] The big thanks. [2:04:04] Substance. [2:04:05] criminal, lie, crime, [2:04:08] overweight, all those, those are usually the big thanks. And he overcame all of them. All of them. [2:04:14] So it's like that's where that power comes from where to influence so many people. It's because. So what was your issue again?

[2:04:22] Yeah, well, Jelly Roll, yeah, he overcame that. Wait, was it something else? Oh, that too? I mean, it's everything. All the big things he's overcome. So what else is there? What else are you going to blame? [2:04:34] You just got to find a thing. Find a thing. Get on the path. Yeah. Get moving. On the path, baby. Get moving, bitch. I'm going to get to the bathroom. Sorry, lads. All right. What? [2:04:43] See, I told you. It's got that Australian bladder. It's upside down. No, it's the IV. I told them. I said, hey, put all that shit in this much whatever fluid because I don't want to have to take a piss. I wonder if it works as good that way. They made it super concentrated. Did they really? Yeah, they did. That's hilarious. Why don't we just wait and pee? I don't mind peeing. But every time I've done that, when I come here after an IV, I do the same thing after pee. Yeah, I know. Or after the sauna because after the sauna, I always drink this giant 64-ounce. [2:05:13] think of water and electrolytes and then like an hour and a half in the podcast i'm like oh no that hits jelly roll had he learned that lesson in the blank because we were sitting for hours and like if you haven't ever been in a position where you know you you can't just get out and go pee or whatever then you're like [2:05:32] Ooh, I didn't know what this is. Holding, you know, he said he was going to piss his pants. [2:05:38] He's like, had to make a hole in the blind and pee in two and cover it up with, because I was like, okay, just make a hole, cover it up with dirt, whatever, and that's what he did. But yeah, it was pretty, when you got to piss, it can be miserable. Well, there's a mental challenge of sitting still for long periods of time. Like, I've only tree stand hunted once. I did it at Dudley's place in Iowa. Yeah.

[2:06:02] that you're hunting and it's so fucking cold it's so cold and you have to sit still right you can't fucking move a muscle and you're out there for hours and hours and hours just hoping a deer gets it within bow range and the only reason why they do is just they just happen to be wandering right and it's total luck it's complete luck i mean that's why those guys like a lot of those [2:06:32] at a time yeah they'll hunt a single buck for like 38 days or however long the season is and they're in that damn blind every day or they're in that tree stand every day just dark freezing their dick off just huddling up with mittens and shit and and then when the and sometimes when if you have a like a powerful bowl like you pull back like when it's zero degrees outside and you go to pull that thing back you're like tough you might not get it back no yeah oh no and that's a [2:07:02] Oh, no. Nowadays, so back in the day... [2:07:05] Back when I used to – I still tree stand hunt for black tail sometimes. But phones have changed how long you can stay because you can just fuck around on your phone now. Oh, that's true. Then also there's heated vests, heated socks. Yeah. So you can have – it's still – [2:07:23] Just standing in a tree or sitting in a tree for... [2:07:26] 14 hours, terrible. Still terrible. Terrible. Even with all that stuff. It's a little easier, but...

[2:07:32] Pretty terrible. Well, thankfully, gear's a lot better, too. Like, layering systems. And you could stay alive. Let me put it that way. You're not going to be comfortable. But you could stay alive out there at zero degrees sitting still. Dude, I didn't... [2:07:49] I, you know, signed on with Sitka now, but I hadn't, I'd other things. I was, you know, under armor, different, whatever. And, uh, [2:07:56] I guess... [2:07:58] I had never had good gear my entire life because I didn't fucking know I didn't have to be miserable in a tree stand. And so Sid Kissimmee, I don't know what it is. It's like some sideways zip jacket or bag. [2:08:12] Yeah, it's a jacket. I can't remember what it's called, but it's polar fleece. And I was like up there going... [2:08:19] I fucking feel good. I'm not freezing. And I had never... So like I said, I've bowhunted my whole life. I guess I always just had shit that wasn't the best. And just thought, ah, it's part of the deal. Not just that. It doesn't restrict any of your movement. No. I used to have to wear fucking seven hoodies. Right? Trying to pull a bow with seven hoodies on. But that's how I had to stay warm. So with the Sitka stuff, with John Barclos, and he's kind of into design. And he's a bowhunter himself. But... [2:08:49] I can have this shit on and it's not restrictive. I can pull my bow and, you know, it's not, this isn't like a fucking ad for sick. If there's other stuff out there that does that too, great. I just don't know about it because I'd never had it, but man, that, [2:09:02] that shit works good there's a bunch of high level gear that's out there but yeah it's like whatever they've done with sitka they've made it so that everything works perfectly they've dialed it in perfectly the pants they have the built-in knee knee pads which is huge i love those pants so when you're crawling on like they're the perfect knee pads they're super lightweight but you could sneak around on stuff on your knees and not be in agony right

[2:09:26] And it doesn't restrict your movement at all. The level of detail they have now on these clothes is nuts. And it's more fitted, you know. I remember, like... [2:09:35] stuff that we used to use we used to complain about it together but it's like who are they making these pants for when the legs are that wide at the bottom still so you're walking along hunting and it's just like bell bottoms and they get wet they're fucking flopping around and shit it makes me so pissed i would take pictures and send a kid when he's at under armor or like the pocket or something i'm like what the fuck is going on but yeah this this stuff fits good yeah [2:10:05] so that they stay open, stay alive, because it's like that kind of gear is so fucking important. To have gear that doesn't restrict your movement, totally keeps you comfortable and warm, makes you – so you can move around very quietly. Whatever fabrics they're using, they've got it dialed in, man. When you're walking, if your fabric rubs together, you don't hear a fucking thing. Yeah, and again, time's precious, and we're doing stuff in this time. We want to enjoy it, so we're in gear that makes us enjoy it. It's great. [2:10:35] But it's just – the market for this, this is like one of the things that really – [2:10:42] is I think important. Like the market for these things that are so impactful and important to us is not a whole – did I just touch the microphone that I fucked up? [2:10:53] It sounded weird on my end. It's not a big market. There's not a lot of us out there. So it's like, God, I'm so thankful that someone put so much research and development into these products, whether it's Hoyt Bows or whatever you're using. You've got to think, how many people had to work tirelessly to figure out how to make this thing that is so critical to your success? Mm-hmm.

[2:11:18] You know, fill in the blank, binos, like whatever it is, whatever you're using. Who fucking figured out how to make binoculars? How about the SIG ones that have image stabilizing now? Who figured that out? What wizard? What wizard scientist? I got a pair of those 16 power SIGs, the Zulus. You hit that switch and turn on the image stabilization. And normally, if you're holding, for people who don't know, if you're holding 16 power binos in your hand, [2:11:48] is all wiggly because it's 16 times larger than what you actually see so every micro movement is a giant jiggle in your eyesight in your eye picture but with those things it's like you're watching a movie it's like fully locked in like it's on a tripod it's crazy yeah i was looking for a friend's and i'm like and i was like uh look the glass isn't as good in them and i'm saying that to him you know and then because i'm looking for my amaya crystal clear and maybe the glass [2:12:18] isn't as good in them but because the image is dead still so i'm doing this i'm putting mine up and i'm like it's really clear and then i put that up and i'm like they're not as clear now you have to turn the button on and i press the button on i was like oh fuck yeah because the image is still so you're really getting a look at it's it's it's gonna be it's the future [2:12:38] Swarovski is now doing it with spotting scopes. So they have a handheld spotting scope that completely stabilizes the image. So there's no tripod now. No tripod. I mean, you hold like a 65 power spotting scope and you can look around like this, which is crazy. Crazy. And the reason why that's so critical to a hunter is...

[2:13:00] We look for movement, just like an animal looks for us moving too quickly, but we look for movement like an ear flick or a tail wag or something like... [2:13:09] or they'll sometimes they're high just if they got a fly lance on them. So you're looking for like a small little bit of movement. You can't do that if you've got movement in your optics. But with that stabilization, it's dead solid. So you can see when that ear flicks. Where it'd be flicking before, you just didn't notice it. So that's where it's like so critical. But if you think about all this stuff, this top-of-the-line stuff that we talked about with the bows, the camo, the binos, [2:13:39] But fucking still is so hard. Still is so hard. That's what's so beautiful about it is it's so challenging. I don't care about it. All this stuff is great. No matter what you do, you're going to stink. Yeah. And if the wind catches the back of your neck and you see that animal's head pop up, it's a wrap. Yeah. They're designed to get the fuck away from any funky smells of things that eat meat. Yeah. Not interested. I'm out of here. They smell us, Brian. We must stink. Yeah. We must fucking smell like hot death to them. Oh, yeah. [2:14:09] Because when you see an elk or a deer catches a whiff of you and their head is like, oh, no. [2:14:14] what is this fucking oh they don't even have to think that long about it and you know they keep making these rules to try to make bow hunting harder like eliminating certain things like that garmin site i used to love using that garmin range finding site and then they made it outlawed in utah i'm like oh guys come on like this doesn't make it any easier it just makes it so that you're going to wound less things and have more effective shots

[2:14:41] When you get to that, it used to be there was no rangefinders, right? When you started out, was there any rangefinders at all? Nothing. There was no sights when I started out. No peep sight, no fixed sight. That's crazy. We shot fingers with compound. That's crazy. So I'd have a little glove, three-tab glove thing, and you'd shoot that. [2:15:01] What year did they invent the archery release? [2:15:05] Well, I got one in 89, finally. When did they first come out? Who was the first guy that goes, you know what? This is bullshit. I need a thing that I can kill. I like how Cam's like, I got one in 89. I was nine years old. Well, at least you were born. I didn't know the word elk. [2:15:26] But you knew the word cunt, because they say it all the time down there. They say it when you're a baby. As soon as you're born, hey, little cunt. [2:15:35] Like, who was the guy that figured out the archer release? That guy's a wizard. Jim Fletcher was – the Fletcher release was the first one I had, and it had a little rope in it. I remember you'd have to put the rope around and it'd hook on the trigger, on the clasp, and then you'd hit the trigger and release it. And I didn't get – I had to replace that rope because it'd start to wear off. [2:15:55] So you'd have to have the right knot and then you kind of burn it to get it to hold in there. I didn't have a good enough. So I didn't do that knot right. I go to pull the bow back. The release comes off, hit myself in the face.

[2:16:11] Did they? Yeah. Some releases would come with a little rope. And I was like, what the fuck is this for? And it must be for guys who had kind of always done it that way and didn't want to not do it that way anymore because that was like a part of their thing. Maybe. Did you find a Fletcher release? [2:16:27] 1971. Wow. 71. 71. Oh, yeah. Okay. Look at that. Stanislavski. Yeah. Yeah. [2:16:35] Still, they make awesome releases today. Look at that. That is awesome. That's crazy. Yeah. [2:16:42] Oh, so that was just like a thing that went around your fingers. Yeah, and it just turns to let it go. Oh, like a hinge? Yeah. Wow. May revolutionize. Look at that image. May revolutionize archery. Look at that. Go back to that. Look at that. May revolutionize archery by contributing to unprecedented accuracy. I mean, that's essentially like a hinge. Yeah, it is. Wow. Was there a fight back on it at the time? 66. 66. Wow. Wow. I never touched a bow before 64. [2:17:12] I got an idea for you guys. [2:17:14] Wow. Using the six gold bowstring release to improve their speed and accuracy. Wow. Oh, his two sons. Glenn and his two sons use this release. I never even heard of this guy's name. Clarence. [2:17:28] Look how it works, too. Like, you hook it with your index finger, and then you pull your index finger through, and it pops off. That's crazy. So when you draw it, you have it like that, and then you release it, you let it go. You just let it go. You let it slip. Yeah, like a hinge. And it turns. Yeah. A lot of guys shoot a hinge that way. You know, some guys shoot a hinge by pulling down with their pinky finger. Oh, see that piece of rope? Yeah. Hand released from 1950. Whoa.

[2:17:54] So there's certain releases. That's crazy. Look at that thing. [2:17:59] Look at that thing. It looks like a gun handle. [2:18:01] That's so weird. [2:18:03] Peace. [2:18:04] Huh? $5.95. [2:18:06] $5 a nice cash. They pay for money. That's shipping right now. I mean, you can't even ship for that. That's... They'll pay for money. What a cool looking release. Imagine what a gangster you'd have to be to use that today. Yeah. I wonder if they could... I love all this stuff, though. Look at that one up there in 1977. A seer type release. Go up. Oh, look at the guy with all the girls. Yeah, that's what you get. See, that's bow hunting. Get all the girls. Look at this. This is the first hinge style release. Yeah. So this is in the 70s. Huh. [2:18:35] Look how weird that thing looks. Yeah. Wow. Because it was always hard to get a consistent release with fingers, right? Of course. Three fingers in a way. No, your fingers get cold and shit's wet. Totally makes sense. Yeah. Wow. Let's look at the other ones real quick. [2:18:51] There was always a big fight in Australia whenever something new come in, like sights on a bow. Go to that image of that guy. Terry Ragsdale. With the girls. Yeah, he shot PSE. Yeah, he's a legend. PSE, baby. Look at the girls are on their knees. Oh, my God. You shoot that stick so good. [2:19:10] See? And that's still how it is, pretty much. That happens all the time. That's how it goes. As soon as you pull a release, they get out. They can't wait. They hop out of the trees. And then they're there. You're amazing. He was a stud. [2:19:21] Terry and Michelle Ragsdale. Look at that weird-looking one. D. Wild, yeah. The wild thing. When I first started, he was the man. Oh, that one has a trigger. That might be one of the first ones with a trigger.

[2:19:32] Wow. See, that one's with the string. If you would buy old Carter releases, some of the releases would come with a little string. [2:19:41] I was like, what is this fucking stupid string for? I never get it. I never even asked anybody. Oh, really? No, it just didn't make sense. See, I remember that. That's 2000, so that's getting newer. Look at the wind release. That's nuts. Yeah. [2:19:54] There's an overdraw up there. Yeah. That's cool. Overdraw, right? Wow. Yeah, so that's... 1990. Look at that funky looking one with wood. This episode is brought to you by Gold Belly. Gold Belly will ship you the most insane dude foods from all across the country. You got to try the ribs from Terry Black's in Austin. Massive, juicy beef ribs that take a day to cook. And you just... [2:20:16] sink your teeth into them, Gold Belly will ship them to you anywhere. [2:20:21] And you've heard me talk about Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles from L.A. Man, now you don't have to sit in L.A. traffic to get some of that chicken. Just order on Gold Belly. So ship Dad something awesome from the most iconic restaurants across the USA. Go to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with the promo code ROGAN. That's goldbelly.com, promo code ROGAN. This episode is brought to you by Manscaped. Wondering what to get your dad on Father's Day? [2:20:51] The Beard and Dome Bundle from Manscaped is a really solid option. I've been using their Dome Shaver for a while now, and the thing I like about it is how easy it makes everything. You don't have to think about it. It just glides over your head, gets everything clean, no weird patches, no going over the same spot ten times. Honestly, it's so much better than anything.

[2:21:11] any of the other brands I've tried. And then there's the Beard Hedger. It's got this zoom wheel with 20 different length settings that's built right in. So if you want to get your dad something he'll actually use, the Beard and Dome bundle for Manscaped is an easy pick. Get 15% off plus free shipping with the code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. That's 15% off plus free shipping with code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. That's kind of cool looking. [2:21:41] So I guess it's the thumb button. It must be. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Wow. [2:21:47] Wow. And see, some of them have strings. [2:21:51] So in case people were like old school. [2:21:53] Yeah, pretty cool. Wow. Archery history. So how would you, when you first started, how would you measure distance? Was it all just in your mind? Just instinct. Instinct. Yeah. So just like throwing a ball. Yeah. So you just have to, you know, it's just like now they have unmarked 3D tournaments. Right. They don't have it. You just have to get out there and kind of judge. Yeah. [2:22:14] It was definitely harder back then because the bows weren't as fast. So you could only be off by like a yard or two or you'd miss. Now with a faster, flatter shooting bow, you can be off... [2:22:26] You can't be up by five yards. Right. For people who don't know what we're talking about, the slower the bow is, the more it's going to drop by the time it gets to the target. The faster the bow is, the flatter it's going to shoot. Right. You've learned your cast on a bow, too. So you never wanted to get rid of that bow. Yeah. Because you would literally learn. [2:22:41] the cast of an arrow. And that's what...

[2:22:43] Do it. [2:22:44] Adam's talking about is the trajectory. So we used to practice this all the time. Like you'd have a target out there at 60 yards, but halfway in between you and the target, you couldn't even see the target. So you'd put like, you could put a car. [2:22:57] And so you're looking through the car window because you can see through the glass. [2:23:02] Line of sight, you're going to go right through, break the windows and everything else. But you just know that at 60 yards, that arrow is going to be 10 yards above that car halfway there. [2:23:11] So at 30 yards, the arrow has to go up to come down at 60. So you could just aim right at the car. Arrow's going right over it. So we do stuff like that just for fun. To figure out the arc of the arrow. Right. But not even – that was like just an elementary example just so people could – [2:23:27] get what i'm saying but when we'd get in the woods then there'd be a branch like i i said i shot with levi morgan he came out and did lift run shoot i'm like okay i'm gonna beat this fucker he's 16 17 time world champion so i had all these shots where it's like okay this branch is he gonna know this one shot was like [2:23:49] I think it was 90 some yards at a deer up on the hill, but there's this big branch halfway in between it. And I knew it was kind of hard to tell, is your arrow going to go over it or under it? Right. It was because you didn't know that. I think it was about, [2:24:04] 25 yards away. I knew what my arrow was going to do because I practiced over and over and over and I'm going to be like, oh, Levi's going to fuck this one up for sure. I'll beat him on this target. Sure as shit. He knew exactly what his arrow was going to do. He practices that all the time and done it his whole life and this and that. Just fun games like that

[2:24:26] And it was only just to make us, because when you're hunting, that shit happens all the time. But where I would kind of screw myself up is I loved the challenge of shots so much. And I shot between trees so often because that was like... [2:24:41] My thing I could just like even it was just like like four inches. I'd be like, oh, I can go through there. So when I was hunting if I'd see a challenging shot on an animal, I'd be like. [2:24:52] where I could have maybe taken a step to the right and got wide open, I'd be like, I can make this shot. And like, [2:24:58] making my hunting shot more challenging because I was just young and an idiot. Now I'd be like... [2:25:05] I'd be stupid. I'd just go right here and shoot. But I would do that, but we'd practice that all the time because it was fun. And then you'd like have – you'd want your – I mean I had so much confidence in shooting. I would shoot hours and hours and hours every day. I remember one time. [2:25:20] We're at this Hinson's, these guys who used to bow hunt with us. Me and Roy were there. And there's a bale out there at 70-some yards and then a piece of foam that was like a – [2:25:32] A broadhead target used to be just a square piece of foam, like two inches, maybe... [2:25:37] maybe three inches wide, but like by two foot by two foot. [2:25:41] And that was your broadhead target. And that would stop an arrow with a broadhead on it, just that two or three inches of foam. Well, the foam target, the broadhead target was laying flat on the bale at 70 yards. So it was only like two inches. And we would have these competitions all the time. I'm like, I said, see that broadhead target on the cedar bale? Yeah, I'm going to hit that broadhead target.

[2:26:01] and I would hit it [2:26:03] So we were the best shots ever with no rangefinders. So then Bushnell finally came up with a rangefinder, and it was like a... [2:26:12] kind of like a... I remember, like a cassette. Yeah, kind of longer, like an 8-track tape almost, like sort of size, and then it had a dial on it, and the images, it'd be off, and then if you lined up the image like this... [2:26:25] That would be, you look at the, then you look at it, wherever that image lined up, that'd be the yardage. [2:26:32] So then you'd be like, okay, that's close to 50 yards. [2:26:37] then you'd know to shoot for 50%. [2:26:38] But it wasn't very accurate. It was close. And did you have a sight tape? You had pins. You had pins. Yeah, the sights didn't move at that time. So your pins would be set up at like 20, 30, 40, 50, something like that? Yeah, and they just had like – we called them T-Dots. So it was like a little plastic, sort of like fiber, but it was like red plastic that would – [2:27:00] sort of like have light on it like a little just a little light up. No fiber optics or anything. No it wasn't fiber but it light up a little because it's red plastic. Yeah I heard uh. [2:27:12] people talking about this the other day. They were talking about Josh Jones and Josh and Tim's fireside chat. Yeah. [2:27:19] It's a great podcast. Yeah. They were talking about how a site that you buy today for like $25 is so superior to anything that existed in like 1990. Yeah. But it still made it.

[2:27:32] It's fiber optics. It's enjoyable. It still made it a lot more successful. You know, it's like it was still a big advance at that time. Yeah. But to think about where it is now is insane. Well, the Garmin site, like I was telling you about, it had a few flaws. I had one that worked perfectly, and then I had a second one. You know, one of the things you said, when you get a new bow, you don't want to put old shit on the new bow. You want to put new shit on the new bow. I like new stuff. I did that too. But unfortunately, my first Garmin site worked perfectly. My second one didn't work so good. [2:28:02] and then times where I couldn't get a range. I'd press it. It wouldn't go. I'm at full drop. Press it. Won't go. Press it. Won't go. Press it. Finally. But when it does work, you get this like a red dot. You get a clear screen, and on that screen is a red dot. No pins, no wires, no nothing. And oh, I love it. When it worked perfect, because then – [2:28:24] Say if you hit an elk at 50 yards and then he stands out at 80 and he's still standing broadside, you don't have to rearrange. You just press a button on your grip and it instantly gives you a new range. Yeah. I think we talked about this before and I think I mentioned that. [2:28:39] The goal is to try to protect the integrity of archery, like keeping it primitive. So it's like, where's that line? Right. Where is the line? In Utah, they decided that that Garmin site was past the line of primitive. So we want to honor archery and the history of archery. And yes, there's been advancements, but... [2:28:59] It's always – it's a moving target on where the line is to keep it primitive. I get it. But if you've ever – I don't think – I think it's ignorant because I think if you use one of those things, you realize like all it's doing is taking a step away. It's still the same exact thing. You're range-finding either way and then you're dialing to 50 yards and whatever you have to do to execute the shot then. But this way, you're a full draw and the range-finding is a part of that.

[2:29:29] It's just smarter. Right. [2:29:30] If it worked perfectly, it's smarter. And I think they're going to get better, and I'm sure the software is better. I haven't used it in two years. But when it worked, it was amazing. It was like this is really what you want. What you want is to absolutely know the exact distance so you can make an ethical shot. [2:29:47] So if you range at 50 and then he takes a few steps and then you're guessing because you can't rearrange – [2:29:53] Look, we already have a less than 10% success rate anyway. It's not like everyone who gets a tag is going to get an elk. It's a small number of people that are really successful all the time. [2:30:04] That would keep you from wounding, and that should be our goal always. I don't think it's any easier. It's just more effective. I think there's more room for error in it, though, isn't there? Because, like, my binoculars are the range finder, so I can definitely get the dot. [2:30:20] 100% on the animal. Right. Whereas I think with those sites it's a little bit more difficult to [2:30:26] Definitely be [2:30:27] Ranging that animal and not a branch five yards behind it or five not when you're at full draw. No, they're really good So when you're at full draw when when it worked at full draw you're steady like your pin, right? So you have a target and the target is like this little red thing and when you put it on there and then you press the button then it gives you your pin [2:30:47] Yeah, but what if you're not on it? What if you're like, because you said it would eliminate wounding, which it wouldn't. No, no. I didn't say to eliminate wounding. If I did, I misspoke. What I meant was you're going to get less of that because you're going to have more effective exact ranges. Right. But you said like if you needed a follow-up shot, that's where people, we know adrenaline goes crazy for sure after the first shot. So if they're wound up and they're shooting too quickly because that sight allows it.

[2:31:16] Could that be a negative? But it's a follow-up shot. Yeah. Why are you shooting too quickly? That's a mind management thing. You should figure out how to manage your mind and calm yourself down and make that shot. You wouldn't freak out on a second shot if you had that. Right. That's what I'm saying. And if you had that and you 100% could count on it the same way you count on your rangefinder, that would be the best thing for everybody. Best thing for the animal. Best thing for you. Best thing for everybody. And it's a way better sight picture. The sight picture is amazing. It's a red dot. [2:31:46] It's just like a red dot on a pistol. You know, like a red dot on a pistol? That's what it looks like. That dot is just sitting there, and you just can put it right on the vitals. It's a beautiful feeling when you watch through that range-finding site, and you put that pin on, and then the arrow releases, and then you watch that arrow soar, and boink, right in there. Ooh. That's good hunting. Ooh, it's nice. I don't doubt that. I'm just devil's advocate, but. I get it. [2:32:16] I'm a fan of Garmin. I've got a Garmin watch on right now. I'm a fan of Garmin period. They make awesome shit. They make awesome range finding. I mean awesome GPS equipment. They make awesome watches. They make great shit. They make great the chest straps, the workout things. They make awesome stuff. So I'm just happy that someone put the research and development and the money that must have taken to put together a fucking range finding binocular range finding site rather that actually works. [2:32:45] Yeah, I agree. I mean...

[2:32:47] I just want a better one. I want it perfect. That'll get there. I want it like my – I have that – one of the things that I fucking love, I have a Leupold Full Draw 5. That's my favorite rangefinder of all time because it gives you the arc of the arrow at its peak. That is so huge. Yeah, that's cool. And I used it to kill a bull once because – and when I had that Garmin sight, in fact, because I had the Garmin sight – [2:33:09] And I ranged this elk, and it was at 50 yards, but there was a hole only like this where I could shoot through. And I was like, oh, I don't know. So then I pull out the loophole, and I hit the button, and I see the exact arc of the arrow where it's going to be at its height. And its height was six inches below those branches. I'm like, we're good. Yeah. We're good. So just keep the pin on them, and it was perfect. See that thing? Oh, fucking love that thing. Oh, yeah. That thing is so huge. [2:33:39] is a little sketch, right? Because that could hit it on the way in, right? So that's the height of your arrow, but that doesn't mean, where's that tree? Yeah. Like that tree might be 20 yards ahead of you. You might smack right into that fucking thing. [2:33:49] So you have to take that into consideration. But having that extra indication of the height, the high point of the arrow. Huge. On this, you just take a step to the left. Exactly. Or if you were me when I was younger, you'd just shoot right there. Just shoot straight forward. Or would you get on your knees. Yeah, get on your knees. Get on your knees and excuse the shot. But it's like having that knowledge. What it's going to keep is that arrow whacking that branch and then sticking in his ass and wounding him. [2:34:14] Whereas you might have made a perfect release, but because of that high point of the arrow indication, now you know and you can make a more educated decision. It's all about making the ethical shot. And so for me, anything that allows you – it's still going to be really fucking hard to do. It's always hard. Here's – okay. So I'll just do a list real quick. The biggest –

[2:34:39] help. [2:34:40] in bow hunting has been the laser rangefinder. [2:34:43] That changed the game, definitely. [2:34:47] That was back in the day. And sight tapes. [2:34:49] Good day. [2:34:50] Now, well... [2:34:51] Some people, yeah, some... [2:34:53] Some people don't do well with sight tapes in the heat of the moment as far as dialing the sight, right? But it can make it's made me more accurate at longer range for sure to be able to dial the sight and hold right on. Yeah right now the so that [2:35:05] A positive has been Onyx or the mapping system as far as for hunting the mountains. That has helped so many people and so much confidence. Huge. That's a giant one. It's like. [2:35:15] And that's one reason why the backcountry definitely has more people in it because more people are confident. It used to be like you have to read a 7.5-minute per angle topo map. You don't have to do that shit anymore. So now you don't have to figure out where your car is anymore. You mark your car. You're good to go. That's been huge. There's a huge negative. [2:35:35] Not... [2:35:36] too many people are talking about. And it's... [2:35:40] It's a... [2:35:41] Using optics with – they pick up heat signature. What are those called? Thermals. Thermals. Yeah, those – [2:35:50] Dude. [2:35:50] It's not good for hunting. You don't... [2:35:53] So glassing is an art. We've talked about glass and having good glass movement. Glassing is an art. These thermal optics, you don't have to be good at anything. You're like a predator. You put them up, and it tells you where the animal is. So I've never even used one, but I've talked to guys who have used them, and I know that it's not great. Because what would take hours to glass it, and you probably would miss a bedded mule deer buck.

[2:36:19] Five minutes, you know where every animal is on that hill. That's a good argument. There's a good argument that that's too far. That is way too far. And is that legal in most states? It hasn't even hardly been covered. Really? It's kind of a new technology that they don't even address, really. I think California's outlawed it. I hope so, because it needs to be outlawed everywhere. That's a good point. So many big animals are getting killed that shouldn't be getting killed right now by guys using thermals. And... [2:36:46] Is it a loophole? Are they doing it when they shouldn't be doing it in some states? Or is it because to catch people is tough. You know, hunting is about honor. [2:36:55] Honor and respect is what we talk about. We police ourselves. We do it right. I mean, yeah, there's people who get busted for doing shit, but most people are just out there policing ourselves. Well, it's because they want that same respect. [2:37:07] Yeah, we talked about it, yeah. What's Hal Day's first name again? [2:37:11] Cal Halliday. Cal Halliday? Yeah. When you talk about that guy, they want you to talk about – every man wants you to talk about – [2:37:18] him like that he's not around like that and they're not gonna if you're right in corners and you're using some shit you're not supposed to or what is that what is the law on that though because like every state has different laws right like nevada you're allowed to use walkie-talkies and at least you used to be able to we can tell people hey he's right above you it's a little bit probably like the e-bike thing where it's so fresh that they haven't come up with you can or you can't right now it's a bicycle no it's not it's a motorcycle right it's optics no it's not it's [2:37:48] Yeah. Let's see what the laws are. Put that into perplexity. What are the laws? What states allow thermal binoculars for hunting? Thermal scopes are not universally allowed for hunting. Yeah, but not thermal scopes, thermal binoculars.

[2:38:05] It says thermal optics down below. Right there in Europe, owning thermal optics is often... Yeah, but what about in America? In America, what states allow... [2:38:15] Thermal binoculars for hunting. Put that in there. [2:38:19] Not scopes. That's the problem. It's the word scope is for a rifle scope. [2:38:24] Binoculars. [2:38:26] Let's see. [2:38:30] How crazy is this AI where it just does this and immediately gives you the answer? [2:38:35] Thermal imaging devices, including binoculars and monoculars, are legal to own in the United States, and many states allow them in some hunting context, especially predators or nuisance species like hogs or coyotes. However, several states either completely ban thermal for any hunting or ban possession, use of thermal devices while taking or locating wildlife. So examples of state rules, some states explicitly allow thermal optics for night hunting, [2:39:01] For example, Texas, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Missouri, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, authorized thermal devices for specific predator or invasive species hunts in their 2025 regulations. [2:39:11] Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Tennessee, prohibit thermal optics for hunting wildlife altogether. [2:39:20] or for most game species. [2:39:22] Yeah, so a lot of states. So it seems like a few states are on the ball with this. Yeah, I mean, it's a big deal because those animals, to get to trophy status for these animals, they're old. They've survived. They know what it takes. They've done it. They've outwitted hunters for years.

[2:39:40] in their best bed were [2:39:43] a man would never be able to find them by glassing. [2:39:46] that he's behind a tree but a knee is showing out from the tree. It's not hunting. It's not right. It's not the art of glassing, which is how we've developed these skills. It's [2:39:59] Using technology. That makes sense. It makes sense because it's like you're saying there is a line. Yeah. And you are actively campaigning for something that's going to make your job easier to go away. Yeah. I wanted to keep the challenge there. Well, it's also what you said when, like you said, in the town you grew up, if you killed a big buck, people respected you. Why? Because that's really hard to do. Those big old bucks are fucking smart. And they are tuned in, man. They hear a branch snap. And it's like, fuck this. [2:40:29] They're that big for a reason. They're that big for a reason. [2:40:44] And basically, there's a tunnel in there and then a deer bed. And like you couldn't see it from anywhere. And I was thinking, man, if a buck was bedded there, you'd have no idea. Yeah. Right. But you would now if you had the thermal optics. And that's like that was a perfect example of a buck that found that bed. [2:41:00] That's where he's safe, and that's how he survived now that that's taken that away. There's probably trad guys listening to this podcast, though. I know, right? Fuck off, you dickheads. Trad, for people that don't know what that means, trad guys are guys who hunt with a regular old-school bow and arrow, like a recurve bow. Which is cool. It's a good challenge. They're just guessing where that arrow's going to go, you know? Well, practice. Oh, yeah, they practice, but there is a lot of guessing. You're guessing the yardage.

[2:41:30] I mean, some of those guys that trad boat hunt, do they use rangefinders? No. [2:41:36] None of them. So all of them are just guessing. It's instinct. I try and do a couple of trad bowhunting. Instinct, is it? Because it's like when you throw a rock, is that guessing? No, it's instinct. Right. Yeah. It's just like to get good at pitching a baseball. Right. I mean, it's the same. Some people are really good. Except the pitcher's mound and the batter's box, the same distance every time. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, that's the difference. Well, if you're disciplined, you would know that it's under 20 yards every time, and that's what you'd take. Yeah. [2:42:06] of bow yeah you know well pretty accurate with it like they have some different ways of measuring like where the tip of it is yeah 40 yards they know that that's when it's going to hit dead on yeah they look down the arrow instead of like we do through a people they're looking down the shaft of the arrow they look all squirrely and shit like this some people look so squirrely they put it on their eye or they put it here and they use the point of the arrow as you said but yeah it's like most people though like you talk about discipline like i'm going to shoot if it's 20 [2:42:36] or less, that's the only time I'm going to shoot... [2:42:38] Unless it's huge. It all goes out the window. It's 70, have a crack. I had it once in a lifetime. It was the biggest thing I've ever seen. I had to shoot. Sometimes you see things and you're like, how do I get to that? [2:42:51] how do I find him even if it's far away [2:42:54] Yeah. Yeah. Normally, like, you see stuff... [2:42:57] here's what would be the technology that would really hurt. Because you see something a mile away, and you know...

[2:43:04] That animal's there. If I could just get to that tree line, if you could just be there. Yeah. Well, that's where those long-range rifle guys, that's a whole different argument, right? Oh, fuck. I hate that, too. Some of those guys, they'll take a poke 700, 900 yards. Oh, yeah. And they're real accurate with it. These guys are so good. Like, they're shooting... [2:43:23] Yeah, and that's a whole other thing. They're taking into account the wind across the canyon. I saw this guy. I'm pretty sure the other Tanner was showing me this because, you know, so much... [2:43:34] waste of time shit on Instagram. But this was kind of cool. He was shooting so far, and he's so good. So he's prone, down, had his long range, all his shit, everything they do. That's a whole art. But anyway, he shot... [2:43:49] And I think he was, if I remember right, he shot and it was so far, he put another shell in, got another bullet on the way. They both hit steel. That's crazy. They both hit steel. At least it was steel and not like some eagle in shape. So he racked another round in in the time it took for the bullet to get there? Yes. That's crazy. And sent the other one on the way. And so it was like a... [2:44:10] Dong dong. [2:44:11] That's crazy. Yeah. That's crazy. This guy's a machine, though. I wish I could remember the fucking page. But the guy's a machine because you can see he's down in his gun. Just like fucking in and still on that scope. Didn't even move. Boom. [2:44:26] That's a whole other art form. That's a whole other keeping your shit together. Crazy long-range shooting. I know a lot of guys that get into it. My friend Justin got really into that. Once you get into long-range shooting, you start...

[2:44:38] just fucking craving it. They just want to hit that steel at 1,500 yards. It's nuts. Some of these guys, they shoot insane. What is the record for the longest... [2:44:50] shot ever taken in [2:44:51] in a competition. [2:44:53] Like those long-range competitions. What do you think it is? [2:44:56] Uh... [2:44:58] I mean, it's 2,000 yards for sure. Really? Yeah. That's so crazy. I would think that people are shooting at 2,000. I'll have a crack. [2:45:06] Yeah, you've got me. 2.4 miles. [2:45:09] Wow. Wait, did I say yard? What did I mean? [2:45:13] Did I mean yards? Yeah, I meant yards. He almost nailed it. [2:45:16] What is it? Tea. [2:45:17] Actually, yeah. [2:45:18] 2.4 miles. Yeah, baby. Wow. How did you guys – you motherfucker. You looked that up somehow. How could he? He lives in Australia. They're not allowed to know this information. I don't even know what Miles is. If you even search this online, the police show up at your door. Holy smart. 4,224-yard shot. [2:45:37] at the Clark, this guy, Robert Brantley. [2:45:40] At the Clarks-Knob ELR match in Kansas, described as a new world record in long-range shooting, achieved under match conditions. [2:45:49] That's incredible. [2:45:51] That is so crazy. Non-competition almost doubled it. Look at that. 4.4 miles. Oh, my God. In 2022 in Wyoming, a team recorded a 4.4-mile, 7,744-yard hit on steel after dozens of tries. [2:46:07] Whoa. Wow. But not a standard scored competition stage. Wow. The problem is, guys see that? Like, 4.4 miles, they're like, oh, I could shoot it 1,000 yards then. Right. Look at that thing he's carrying. They never fucking practiced.

[2:46:21] Good Lord. [2:46:24] The amount of no moving you have to have. Oh, my God, dude. It's crazy. But, yeah, the guy out there with their Bi-Mart 30-06. Do you guys have Bi-Marts here? [2:46:34] You ever heard of Bi-Mart? What's a Bi-Mart? It's a store. Oh, no. Like a sporting goods store. Not a sporting goods. But anyway, they got their... [2:46:43] $250 rifle from by Mart 30 out six and they're like they see that and they're like, oh shit, then I could shoot it and [2:46:50] 600 yards they shoot at 4.4 miles that's the problem that is part of the problem but people say that about me too is like oh people will say i always talk about shooting animals at 100 yards which i have never one time but yeah i practice a long range but they try to lump me in like i'm i'm ruining and promoting long range shooting yeah no you're just amplifying if you're off at all you know or it's good practice yeah no it's great what i always said is her rifle for the 4.4 miles [2:47:20] These fuckers are heavy, too. Oh, yeah. Look at it. [2:47:23] I mean, it looks like a... It's a longbow. It just needs a string on the longbow. Like a barbell. It's probably... [2:47:28] I mean, I bet it's... [2:47:29] 30, 40 pounds. I don't know. Does it say the weight on those things? [2:47:33] Look at the size of that gun. Look at the barrel in that thing. That's nuts. [2:47:37] Yeah. [2:47:39] First confirmed and verified world record. [2:47:42] This isn't the actual one. This is 2018. That shot was taken in 2022. Oh, so it was a world record before the world record. Hmm. [2:47:50] Wow. I feel like I'd get AIDS if I touched a gun. I know those guns are heavy. That's what the government tells you? You get AIDS? The Australian government. You don't want to touch a gun, you might get AIDS. That's exactly what we say. It's only if you stick it up your ass, I guess. No, you've got to stick it up your ass after somebody's stuck it up their ass. Oh, right. Yeah. You've got to get a second. It's like.

[2:48:10] dirty needles. I hate when that happens. That's another thing. It's like, you know, like the bow hunters look at rifle hunters, like, oh, that's kind of easy. Traditional hunters look at compound hunters, like, oh, that's easy. And then there's guys out there, I use a fucking spear, you know? Apes to their own too. Yeah, for sure. As long as you're ethical, as long as you could do it. I mean, I'm sure there's probably some guy out there that knows how to hit a target with an atlatl, [2:48:37] You know? Probably. I mean, I... [2:48:40] If I'm using a spear, I don't do anything past three yards. That's like – I speared a buffalo 11 or 12 years ago. It was pretty cool. Did you really? Oh, God. Probably edit that out. [2:48:57] We were trying to figure – I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. We were trying to figure out the other day when the actual bow and arrow was invented, and it's kind of difficult to track down. [2:49:10] invented or at least seems to exist simultaneously at many spots all over the world at the same time, which is really interesting. [2:49:19] Yeah. It makes you think, like, I wonder... [2:49:22] We really don't know how much people are traveling. [2:49:26] Back then. We really don't. There's a lot of guessing. And they keep pushing back maritime travel. They keep pushing back the age of when the first, maybe even primitive humans were using some sort of a raft to get across lakes and rivers and maybe even oceans. But

[2:49:43] you know sharing that information like who is the wizard that looked at a stick [2:49:48] And goes, if I could just put one of these fucking things on the end of that stick. Oh, cool. Hey, why do you have that? I always have that. It's always sitting right here. Oh, I thought you had it in your pocket. I did. Because I put it in my pocket sometimes. I'm fiddling with it. Yeah, I play with that thing. That's a real one. That's from here. Mm-hmm. [2:50:06] Whoa, that's a fucking good one. Yeah, I found one in New Mexico. [2:50:10] Yeah, that's a good one, right? Remy said that one was probably used for fish. [2:50:13] He said because it's so big. Oh, okay. That was his guess. Huh. [2:50:16] But maybe. It might have been used for bison. Sort of bobs. [2:50:20] I mean, it's not... [2:50:22] I mean, it would cut. I mean, it's sort of sharp. [2:50:25] Yeah, I mean, as sharp as you can get it. [2:50:27] That's cool though. It's not like modern Broadheads. Modern Broadheads you can shave your arm with. They cut your eyes when you look at them too hard. Bro. Yeah. [2:50:36] That's what you want. That's the other thing. Is that too good? Is that too easy? Maybe we should go back to Flint. Maybe we should make your own arrowheads, pussy. I like eating. [2:50:50] There was a guy that I went to high school with, but he would say his dad would – [2:50:57] shoot his arrows down the road to make him [2:51:00] he would like want to make the broadhead door so it'd go in and rip a bigger hole. What? That's how he thought? Yeah. Oh, boy. Anyway, people come up with some crazy shit. Well, if they don't know, that's one of the things that's cool about when I got into bow hunting and especially learning it from you. I already knew.

[2:51:21] So much just from talking to you. You had so much information. I didn't have to, like, figure it out nearly as much. I just had to listen. [2:51:28] You know, like so many people have already figured out metal broadheads. So like we were having a conversation about lighted knocks this weekend and I'm like, damn it. [2:51:36] I think I'm going to stop using lighted nox. Yeah, sorry. No, I think you got a really good point. Like that additional 10 grains at the end can't be good for accuracy. It just can't be. I think you've got to pick the situation, though, and it's a little bit, you know, like if I'm going to the Arctic and there's no sunlight. [2:51:53] and I want to see where the arrow hits, okay, a lighted knock's going to override the little bit of inconsistency. Because it's a dull environment. It's hard to see. It's almost like you're dusk all day long. Yeah. And I think, like... [2:52:05] hunting pigs in their beds you know you're under the trees it's dark it might come into play a little bit more there but if it's not required then yeah why why interrupt even a little bit of [2:52:17] accuracy because you get to a certain point in bow hunting where we're talking about the arrow shafts the the better the match grade of arrow shafts you can use you don't notice at the start with because you're just shooting you know and you're not super consistent you're not super accurate and then all those little things end up bringing a group from that to that and there's the difference and you'll notice that at this point [2:52:38] in your archery. Mm-hmm. [2:52:40] Yeah, it makes sense. It totally makes sense. But it's just, again, thank God somebody figured all this stuff out. It's like if you had to come along and do it all by yourself, like, oh. It was a hard learning curve. Like in Australia, we didn't have the sort of figures and probably knowledge that you guys did because it's like it's part of your pastime, right? I was talking to Evan about this. It's like part of the American pastime.

[2:53:07] bow hunter whereas in australia it's not you know and it's not there's not all the information out there and it seemed like australia was probably about 10 years behind the u.s on sites release aids the knowledge behind it um [2:53:21] And... [2:53:23] Yeah, I think the fact that you guys have, like we were talking about Fred Bear, you know, like paving the way for bow hunting in America. And, you know, Australia's had its... [2:53:34] It's idols as well and people that have... [2:53:37] paved the way but a lot [2:53:39] slower than here. [2:53:42] To have all the knowledge, for you to have someone like Cam is absolutely brilliant because... [2:53:48] You are. You've probably made those mistakes yourself or learned them yourself. And then so you go straight to Joe and be like, this is a good setup. This works. This doesn't. And then in Australia, the first things I'll solve were target sites for bow hunting. You know, and it's just like, and we didn't know any better. So as well as wasting time, you wasted a lot of money. You wasted a lot of effort. You wasted a lot of heartache, you know, on finding your way in bow hunting. Yeah. And there's still guys right now that shoot instinctual with a compound. Yeah. It's... [2:54:18] The internet has definitely helped educate people. We used to have to learn it all on our own, which is, I think, to Adam's point, where it's nice when you have a resource or a mentor. A lot of the times, we didn't have that. We had magazines. We didn't have internet, so we just have to figure it out. [2:54:35] When we talk about like the lighted knocks specifically, you mentioned the weight. The weight is one part, but it's also the inconsistency of having those electronics back there on the back of the arrow. And you just can't get it.

[2:54:48] as good as a knock or so that's the connection point from the arrow to the string it's just not going to be as good with electronics in there with it's trying to serve a different purpose of lighting up that knock where to in my opinion that's going to help me [2:55:04] Maybe decide on when to go after the animal knowing where I hit it, but it's not going to make me any more lethal. It's gonna make me less lethal. Hmm. I want the most accurate arrow possible. I [2:55:14] And... [2:55:15] Where that goes, whether I see it or not, doesn't really matter. [2:55:19] I'm going to have to get on that blood trail and recover that animal regardless. So just knowing where the arrow hit isn't making it any more deadly or not. [2:55:28] You know, it's just how that might impact how I react to that shot. But I want the most accurate. That's why I shoot those, you know, the X10s, $50 an arrow, because it's the straightest, most accurate arrow. It's what they've used in the Olympics since 1996. So you can use other arrows. [2:55:47] They're not as straight, not as good. You can put lighted knocks on. You're giving up accuracy. You can do it if you want, and you can say it's going to help in these other ways. [2:55:57] arenas, it's not going to help with accuracy. So all I care about is that arrow going where I want it to go. [2:56:03] That's how I look at things. It's the most important. Yeah. It makes sense. It makes sense. And the amount of times where the lighted knock would help you – [2:56:13] is dwarfed in comparison to the amount of times where accuracy is critical. Right. Right. Accuracy is always critical. Right. And it's only a small amount of times where that lighted knock is really going to come into play where it really helps you.

[2:56:24] That's what I... I mean, it's cool, and it's nice, and it looks... I've never used one, so, I mean... It's really pretty cool. It looks right down over the air. I guess I have a few times, but I just was, like, just thinking about it, like, no, I... [2:56:40] It's not helping me. I always think about it when I take the regular Nox off and put the lighted ones on. Like the regular Nox are solid. Yeah. Yeah. And the lighted ones, there's a hole in the center of it where you've got electronics and a light bulb and a battery. I know. Like there's a bunch of shit in there. Yeah. That has to have some sort of an effect. Right. [2:56:59] Yeah. Didn't Tom Miranda used to have something where he had a weight on the back of his arrow? [2:57:04] Didn't he have something crazy, some weird setup where he had a... Not the breadcrumb, like the tracker. I don't remember what he had. No, it wasn't that. No. It was like a thing that he did to the back of his arrow. I was like, that seems counterintuitive. Where he had additional weight on the back. I don't know what I'm talking about. I can't remember. [2:57:19] I don't know, but Tom Miranda, that's old school. Old school. So you're looking at – I mean, he's still out there getting it done, but that's – I mean, that's history. Is that who we were talking about the other day with the Tom Miranda movie? Oh, he's had those TV shows on forever. Adventure Bowhunting with Tom Miranda. Yeah, no, I didn't know we were talking about that. Oh, okay, yeah, getting around the world. Bro, that guy went all over the world hunting, all over the world. He was one of the first guys that I ever heard about using a sauna to help his hunting. [2:57:50] really yeah yeah he felt like because he was living in florida and the guy was like why do you want a sauna in your house here in florida and he's like because it makes you have more endurance yeah it's better for hunting i didn't know that's yeah and it's pretty cool like tom miranda yeah yeah old school okay it's cool to introduce all that stuff into hunting like if you're that passionate you know i did the sauna i got the ice bath at home i did the hypoxic

[2:58:20] Jim out [2:58:20] so it's basically a gym at altitude now and that's what I was using before I got to Utah and [2:58:27] It actually made me be able to go from the bottom of the mountain to the top without stopping to take a breath, which is incredible. So it's altitude training. It's altitude training. Is it a tent or? No, it's the whole room. Oh. But there's a company called Leonics now. They make, say, it could be the size of this, and it would have red light therapy in here. It would have a sauna in here. It would have the hypoxic conditioning in here, so basically pumping nitrogen into the room to drop the oxygen levels. Mm-hmm. [2:58:55] Um, [2:58:56] And so you could have gym equipment in here, you could sit in here and read a book. But the way that I've got it set out, I'm doing a workout in it now. And I've got a target in the corner, I literally shoot my bow in there at like 14,500 feet. And then to step out of that, like I live at sea level back in Australia, to step out of that at sea level, like you feel... [2:59:16] Oh, I bet. Absolutely incredible. Yeah, I bet. So what was Utah? 8,000? Sometimes feet, 7 something. 7 or 8,000 feet. Probably 9 at the highest. Okay, and I'd be training at... [2:59:29] $14,500. So I felt amazing when I went there. [2:59:33] It was awesome. Technology. Technology. That is useful because, I mean, that's what athletes do. They go to high altitude training in the mountains, and then they come down to lower elevation where there's more oxygen, and there's more oxygen available to push themselves harder. So their body's used to that. It created more red blood cells, essentially. I think it's like a natural...

[2:59:55] I think that's what EPO, they say, does. So it's a natural way to do that. And, yeah, I mean, so. It just doesn't stay very long. Is that right? Yeah, it only stays in your system. Like, your system eventually acclimates to whatever the altitude is. But before it does that, you have a nice advantage. [3:00:11] Do you know what the time is? I think it's like a couple of weeks. Oh, okay. I think that's why they probably put the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs. They want these people to train. It totally makes sense. Yeah, it totally makes sense. Train at altitude. I found mentally I felt a lot better too. So now I've done a bit of reading up on it and it's like the plasticity of the brain improves. [3:00:33] under those conditions as well and then makes sense adapt or die yeah i just feel so happy afterwards i was sleeping in there in the end because i was trying to fit in as much which can be detrimental as well like you don't want to overdo it oh but i was sleeping in there in the end and i'd wake up in the morning and i was just like on a high for like four or five hours why would they say not to overdo it because when they go train at altitude they're up there the whole time [3:00:59] Just to get acclimated, I bet, initially. Yeah. Don't overdo it initially. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I also think that a part of the, you know, it would be like overdoing your muscles if you just kept doing arms every single day, you know. Wait a minute. That's what he does. I don't. You do. And legs. Just kidding. You can't help it, can you? No. Bloody God. That bike that you sent me is fucking awesome, by the way. Oh, the stepper bike is incredible. Because I love the, you know, the Airdyne bikes. I love those things. Yeah.

[3:01:29] thing, and I love the Echo Bike from Rogue, but I think that one's even superior to the Echo Bike. The Bionic Bike? How consistent is it? [3:01:37] the drag is on it. But even more importantly, it's harder. Yeah. It's harder to pull back. Like the Echo Bike is easier to pull back. That one has more resistance. Yeah. And when I first started using that one, I was like, whoa, this one's tough. Like whatever you're getting out of the Echo Bike or the Airdyne Bike, that's that times two. Really? Yeah. What is it called again? Step R. [3:01:58] it's stpr right yeah yeah that thing fucking rules yeah that thing rules i'll get them to deck you out because all their equipment's like that well that that bike is the shit because and it's also got different grips different hand grips and different yeah i'm changing that up yeah i'm down yeah you can you can mix it up you can mix up where the resistance is coming from i actually lift the seat right up so it's nearly like i'm in the standing position oh like this nice with the [3:02:28] It absolutely burns me. I love it. Yeah, it's a great low-impact cardio, too. I mean, it really conditions the shit out of your legs and your lungs, and you're not taking any pounding while you're doing it. [3:02:38] I think it's hard. I'm stoked you like it. Oh, I love it. Yeah, because when it was in there, I didn't know when it had gotten delivered. And I was like, oh, what the fuck is this? And then when it was in the gym, I started trying. The moment I got on, I was like, oh. And it's easy to crank up, too. Like, it's right there. There's no reaching down. The handle's right there. [3:02:55] Woo. It was good. There's so many different things you could use now.

[3:03:01] What were you saying about earlier? It's like you have the opportunity now to be better than you've ever been before because of all this hormone optimization, the ways to well stuff, peptides, nutrition, understanding exercise science, and then equipment. You could condition your body, and you could be in amazing shape at 58, which is crazy. The knowledge of no one that's actually out there is I'm grateful for. Oh, yeah. Yeah. [3:03:26] Just the knowledge and knowing that we can be better every day. We can be healthier physically and mentally. It's great. And I do see a lot of doctors who kind of shit on BPC or shit on stem cells. [3:03:41] Whatever you're saying... [3:03:43] Cool, but I've never felt better. There's a lot of doctors. Hate the proof, buddy. You could say it doesn't work. [3:03:50] Yeah. There's a lot of doctors. I've talked to doctors that shit on it. And I had this one conversation with a doctor that I like. He's a nice guy. And he's like, I think it's a lot of a placebo. And I go, there's. [3:04:00] peer-reviewed studies on BPC 157. You're saying this and you haven't done the research. This is not debatable. BPC 157, there's a very clear pathway. They show why it works. It naturally exists in the human body, and you can enhance your body's ability to recover from soft tissue injuries. It's important. It's good. It's good for you. The idea that somehow or another this is horseshit. No, you're horseshit. You're spitting out some nonsense.

[3:04:30] are specialists in whatever they're in. Like, you know, you got a doctor. You went to school. You got a medical degree. You went to school. You did your residency. You want to be the one who has all the information. And when someone comes along and says, actually, a better way to do it is through stem cells. Like, stem cells. Yeah. Like, what do you mean, oh, stem cells? How much do you know? Neil Reardon has written many papers on stem cells. Like, there's a documented efficacy on neurological conditions, soft tissue injuries, joint rehabilitation. [3:05:00] guessing right for a doctor to say I [3:05:03] I wouldn't mess with stem cells. It's unproven. The FDA hasn't approved it. It's because the FDA sucks. It doesn't mean that it doesn't work. Like there's scientists that are studying this stuff and there's people that are using it. You got shit tons of anecdotal evidence from world-class athletes that will tell you the benefits of it. There's a reason why the UFC has partnered up with CPI down in Mexico. But they have to go to fucking Mexico to do this stuff, which is crazy. Where it's wrong here in the Bible. Yeah, but Ways to Wells, Brigham in particular, is really working hard. [3:05:33] to make all that stuff available in the United States. And it's only good. It's good for everybody. It's not bad for medicine. People are always going to need doctors. It's crazy. It's just more advancement. And the problem is... [3:05:47] it's going to for sure... [3:05:49] It's going to interfere with people who want to sell you pain pills. It's going to interfere with people that want to do unnecessary surgeries. And unfortunately, that's a real thing. That's where they make their money. And people like to say that, well, it's not FDA approved.

[3:06:04] and i'm like [3:06:05] Have you seen the shit that is FDA approved? Yeah. It's like that doesn't mean anything to me. I might not want to take it if it is. Something like 30% of all medications that get approved by the FDA get pulled. Yeah. It's like that doesn't mean shit to me. What is the percentage? Put that in there. You look at all the fucking poisonous food they sell us. [3:06:23] which is FDA approved. Yeah. I'm like, [3:06:25] So that's your argument? And not approved in other countries. Yeah. Like, other countries have banned it, outlawed it. And we're like, fine, it's fine. It makes your Cheerios a different color. I was saying the difference in ingredients between countries. And it's like, what? Crazy. America has so much. Cheerios is a bad example. Fruit Loops is the best example. Like, the fact that, like, they were like, oh, we can't do that. Well, you do it in Canada. You sell the fucking, the same stuff with different dye, with natural dyes. Yeah. Yeah, it's not as bright, but it also doesn't kill you. Hmm. [3:06:54] It's not poison. It's just so gross. I know. They're so bought and paid for. And here's the real problem. A lot of these motherfuckers, they go from working at the FDA to cushy jobs in these major corporations. Right. It's like they have this golden power shoot set. They're compromised. 100%. Compromised. 2.9% of FDA-approved new drugs from 1980 to 2021 were withdrawn specifically for safety reasons out of 1,310 total approvals where 210, 16% were discontinued for all various reasons, [3:07:24] marketing factors. It's that low? I thought it was higher than that. Yeah, but look at down below where it says antibiotics face higher rates at 41%. Whoa. Okay, so all told, I wonder what the pharmaceutical drugs that get pulled are. Yeah. Antibiotics, 41%, it's nuts. Yeah, and 23% of oncology. I mean... Indications withdrawn, wow. It's like, what the fuck? I mean, we're just guessing on this shit?

[3:07:54] problems with some of these studies is they're getting information from the pharmaceutical drug companies themselves. Like I had this lawyer on those explaining to me how he litigated a case against pharmaceutical drug companies. [3:08:04] And that one of the issues that they found was that these guys would run 10 tests and they would find no efficacy. But so they would rig a test in a very biased way to show the smallest amount of statistical significance. And then they would say it's statistically significant. And they would push that. And their only motivation was profit. They weren't saying this is going to cure cancer. This is going to stop blindness. No, it's like we can make money on this. [3:08:34] with the pharmaceutical drug companies talking about all the problems that it was going to cause, but we think we will do well with this. [3:08:43] Which is crazy. Remember, we looked that one up before. It's like, it's, yeah. I mean, it's nuts how this medicine stuff works. But it's like, there's still like, with the COVID vaccine, still things coming out. I saw last night on TV about, in a small number of cases, it can cause heart, some, whatever the fuck. But we... [3:09:05] We've seen a number of these announcements, like all these – finally this negative stuff about the vaccine. Did it do any positive? Probably not. But all this fucking negative, and that was just coming out years later. And we were bombarded with propaganda that it was necessary to stay alive. Like there was one – [3:09:23] I think it was The Atlantic that had one headline that said, if you're unvaccinated, it might be time to make your end of life will. And then the same same magazine years later, covid vaccines may cause heart damage. Same exact thing.

[3:09:42] Magazine. [3:09:43] Fuck. [3:09:44] You. Yeah. Because you guys only said that because you were being pressured by your advertisers or you were being pressured by culture or society. You didn't look at the history of pharmaceutical medication and how much they're full of shit. They've paid some of the biggest criminal fines in U.S. history because they fucking lied. And the same companies are still selling you shit. You think they came to Jesus? [3:10:05] Do you think they're different now and they don't just try to make money? [3:10:08] And if you question that, you're a conspiracy theorist and a kook and you're taking horse medication. It's so infuriating how many people buy into stuff and how they don't even get in trouble for lying to everybody for so long, for years, just lies and propaganda, face no recourse, not financial, not social, not reputational, no recourse. That's disgusting. [3:10:38] He can't be. He got a giant pardon by the auto pen. [3:10:44] Well, but what's so frustrating, too, is that so they basically said, hey, you have to take this poison or you're going to lose your job. Yeah. Or you won't be able to do this or you won't be able to do that. So take this poison. But then something that we've shown works. [3:10:59] Stem cell, BPC, that's what they'll shit on. Shut up, man. It's just like, what? They're just worried about losing control, and they're worried about losing profits, and they're worried about compounding pharmacies, making this stuff. And they want peptides. They want all this stuff, but they want to be able to market it only under their brand. They want to own it. They want to have patents for all this stuff. And that's where the real problem comes. A lot of these really effective things, they can't patent. Yeah.

[3:11:23] Right. It's all tied to the money. I have a code for peptides that weighs 12. I wish I could remember it so we could use it. It's probably CAM. Is it C-A-M? It's probably Dumb Fuck. You don't know what your code is? No. [3:11:39] Really? Should I call Brigham? Let's end this podcast. Well... [3:11:43] I don't want to bother him. We'll figure it out. Figure it out, fuckers. I'll put it on. Cam will put it on his Instagram. On my Instagram story. I won't put it on an actual post. It's not that important. Okay. Well, put it on whatever. Do whatever the fuck you want to do. I don't care. Well, okay. So here's what I wanted to end the podcast with. What's one thing you learned this season of bow hunting? Oh. [3:12:02] Or wait, is this my call to how we end it? Yeah, you can do it. You can do it. You run the show. What did I learn this season? [3:12:11] I always learn one thing every year, how important leg conditioning is. So fucking important. God, especially elk hunting is the most important thing. Leg conditioning is fucking everything. If you can't get up those mountains and be fit and be able to do it over and over and over again over like five days of miles and miles and miles, no matter what I did, I need to do more. That's what I learned that for sure. That's a big one. [3:12:36] You can never be in too good a shape. Never be in too good a shape. Never have your legs conditioned enough. And you can overpractice archery. I learned that, too, because I started developing this low back problem that I've been going to this trigger point massage I went today. Oh, my God. Yeah, it helps. I get so scared every time I go into this guy's office. He fucking tortures me. It's horrible, especially when he does the IT band with his fucking knuckles and his elbow. It's horrible. But it's super effective.

[3:13:02] I just – I got – essentially, I got tendinitis in my lower back. Overuse injury. Just overuse because I'm pulling back an 80-pound bow 100 times over and over and over again, days after days after days. And every time it would hurt, I would be an idiot and I would go, ah, walk through it. [3:13:19] And you're obsessive. It got bad. Yeah, I'm a little obsessive. It got bad. [3:13:23] But that's why you're great at things too. Yeah, it's a double-edged sword. But you've got to learn, like you were talking about, not overdoing it in the hypoxic thing. You've got to learn. And I don't learn always, but I try to. I learn those things. Those are huge. So, okay, what are you going to do for your legs then? Continue not stopping with leg conditioning ever until September. Okay. Like there was a lot of times – one thing is Waste Well's helped me. [3:13:53] Fucking weird left knee. But the latest round of stem cells that I had did real – they did a real improvement. Like I really notice it. And I'm protecting it. I'm not doing anything stupid in the meantime, you know, like no jujitsu, like no getting heel hooked, nothing that's going to aggravate it. And just build up my conditioning and maintain it over the year. [3:14:16] That's a big one. [3:14:18] Yeah. [3:14:19] That's a good... Would you learn Cam Haines? Me? No, it's Adam's turn. Oh, you go last. I think I learned a lot this season, but just... [3:14:28] Like more about life than just... [3:14:30] in a bow hunting scenario. But I think the biggest thing that I took away from it is

[3:14:36] health as in mental and physical and that you can always like step it up and you can always be better and I think [3:14:43] Like I just, you know, like family life, whatever excuses I can come up with, you know, business and not having the time to put in the extra but finding the extra time because of how valuable it is. [3:14:54] what the payoff in that is, you know, being physically... [3:14:59] healthy, [3:15:00] makes it a lot easier to be mentally healthy because you went for a while where you really didn't work out much i didn't i just i i bow hunted a lot you know and i was on the tools a lot like being in you know the building game but it's not that's different it's a different sort of health you know whereas in actually targeting you know [3:15:18] Losing weight. [3:15:20] eating clean, you know, because it's not just about the gym. It's like everything else that goes with it. So I learned to eat a lot more cleaner. I started doing the hypoxic wellness studio and... [3:15:33] I think a combination of those things and seeing the payoff in two weeks, you know, I'm not talking months. It was like in two weeks I could see a massive difference when you lined everything up, eating healthy. [3:15:44] that made the mountains a lot [3:15:46] more easier... [3:15:47] and a lot more enjoyable. I'm not saying I did more of the mountains. I think I only covered the same sort of miles, but it was just a lot more enjoyable. And that example that I kept saying to you, like going from the bottom of the mountain to the top without having four or five breaks in between when you're like, and hurting... [3:16:05] It was just a lot more enjoyable. I'd stop...

[3:16:08] And it's just like I wasn't even taking deep breaths. I was already scanning the mountains for a bull. And I think it just become a lot more enjoyable. And then getting the headspace from that too, whether it's from me feeling better, whether it's from better plasticity of the mind – [3:16:24] I just... [3:16:25] Overall, I just felt a lot. [3:16:26] better, a lot more connected, a lot more grateful. [3:16:30] as well as in because you feel good. Yeah. So it's easier to think of things more and be more grateful. Yeah. [3:16:37] I like that. [3:16:39] What I took from that is you said climbing the mountain is more enjoyable. To me, that means you're going to make better decisions. Yes. You're going to be, when you're hunting, you know, because when we're fatigued, there's this famous saying, fatigue makes cowards of us all. But it also, we make poor decisions when we're fatigued. So you being at a higher level just physically allows you to hunt better. [3:17:01] is what I think. Yeah, because we're not taking shortcuts, we're making better decisions. We're reading the animal better. We're instead of like, [3:17:09] looking for a because we're gas so we don't want to kick things so we're looking at the ground more instead our heads up and we're reading the situation better so it's just it it [3:17:18] it results in just better hunting. [3:17:20] and you enjoy it more. Yeah, definitely. But I love that. What I learned is that I think I – [3:17:27] I enjoy the success of others. And this has been reinforced over the years. But this year specifically, I enjoy being part of the success of others and taking others like new hunters and just sharing our lifestyle with them. And just what's important to me. And it gives me a chance to share. When you talk to somebody on the phone, you're not getting deep.

[3:17:49] But when you're on a hunt, you get that opportunity. And they're more – I don't know if they have to listen because they can't go anywhere or it's just they're more interested in listening. But it allows me to really like – [3:18:02] Share why... [3:18:04] nature in the mountains and what I do is important. And it seems like it's really, it really resonates with people. And it's just, I, that has given me so much strength and, uh, [3:18:15] and [3:18:16] I don't know. I just... [3:18:18] and purpose. [3:18:19] It's just sharing our lifestyle with others. That's what I've learned that drives me. You've been like that for a long time too. Like that first buffalo hunt that we went on back in Australia, and you killed a bull and it was like I was as happy for you as if I killed it. And then when I killed my bull, it might have been the last day. [3:18:37] Like it was the same. It was all like hugs and that was awesome. And I could see it glowing in your face, you know, that you want, you, you relish in other people's success as well. [3:18:46] Gentlemen, this was awesome. Thanks for having us on, Joe. Always great to hang out with you guys. It's a pleasure, buddy. Love you, too. All right. Bye, everybody. [3:19:10] This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Lots of places can accidentally expose you to identity theft. Doctors' offices, online retailers, insurance companies, the list goes on. Thankfully, LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone could do on their own. LifeLock keeps an eye on your personal information, credit applications, finances, and more.

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